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Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:36 pm
by zippySA
We own the Reserve Bank, so can always afford a stimulus no matter how high our debt is
I cannot agree with this statement - sounds dare I say it very K Rudd like!

To my knowledge, the Government has 2x ways to raise funds (other than taxes and direct income related means):
1. Print more money (I think this is the basis of your comment as "owning the bank") - sounds nice, but money is a simple concept, a promise to value the physical piece of paper to the amount printed on it. It requires substance behind it (actual physical value) or else it becomes worthless - if we stimulate our economy by printing more money, no-one will see any value in our money, and hence we will all end up a lot worse off as our wages and income remain fixed, but everything will require more dollars to purchase as the currency becomes devalued and hyper-inflation takes hold (this can destroy countries and is a spiral once started, super hard to stop).

2. Sell bonds to the international market - which are in my simple mind much like my mortgage. Australia demonstrates it has the capacity to repay (with interest) and people provide us cash and make a return as we pay it off over time. The more we "borrow" under this scheme, the higher our repayments become before we even start paying off the principal. As our ability to repay declines, so interest rates will go up as we become more risky, and then we find ourselves in a whole lot of strife and the downward spiral starts (just think Greece).

I can see the arguments about the Reserve (an independent authority to exec Gov) holding rates too high for too long durnig the GFC - but Labour was pumping so much bloody cash into the economy I can see how they needed to manage infationary pressures. All I really know about the Reserve bank is that I wouldn't want to be on the board - they will always be blamed for being too slow or too fast as rates movements always have positive and negative impacts for different sectors. The Reserve is just one part of a healthy economy - and another is minimal debt versus large debt. And by this, I don't implicitly mean we should be killing ourselves to attain immediate surplus, but we do need someone in charge who actually has a plan to navigate our way back to the freedom that comes with controlled finances and freedom to act autonomously and not in accordance with foreign bankers or ratings agencies.

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:43 pm
by monotonehell
zippySA wrote:1. Print more money (I think this is the basis of your comment as "owning the bank") - sounds nice, but money is a simple concept, a promise to value the physical piece of paper to the amount printed on it. It requires substance behind it (actual physical value) or else it becomes worthless...
Your statement is a little ambiguous so sorry if you meant this already. All of today's national Reserve Money has been fiat currency since the 1970s. It has no intrinsic value. So if you think that our currency is backed by gold reserves then nope. Today's money has no intrinsic value. It is literally worthless. It's only the public's faith in it that makes it useful. Factors in the economy make it desirable (or not) to trade on the International market.
zippySA wrote:2. Sell bonds to the international market - which are in my simple mind much like my mortgage. Australia demonstrates it has the capacity to repay (with interest) and people provide us cash and make a return as we pay it off over time. The more we "borrow" under this scheme, the higher our repayments become before we even start paying off the principal. As our ability to repay declines, so interest rates will go up as we become more risky, and then we find ourselves in a whole lot of strife and the downward spiral starts (just think Greece).
Sort of... Bonds are not mortgages. They are financial instruments. It's more about the worth of the dividends from the bonds which makes them interesting to hold or trade. (dividends might be the wrong word in this context, but I must go!)

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:55 pm
by zippySA
Thanks Monotonehell,
Seems we were in the same understanding or near enough - I was just being clumsy in my description.

It's all about confidence, just about everything in our world is false (geez - where am I going with this) - the only true value we have is arable land and access to water and shelter (assuming we have a stable Government that protects our belief in owning the same) - but now I digress from Fed Politics - and thank God we are getting closer to the 7th Sept and able to move on to other things hopefully when the new dawn begins in the 8th :cheers:

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:22 pm
by monotonehell
Bottom line, as people, everything we do is wrong. Society is a construct of constructs. De-construct! Fight the power! :lol:

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:42 pm
by Aidan
zippySA wrote:
We own the Reserve Bank, so can always afford a stimulus no matter how high our debt is
I cannot agree with this statement - sounds dare I say it very K Rudd like!
If only it was - for if Kevin Rudd were able to explain it to the people then he could win by a 2007like margin! But it appears he doesn't understand it himself.
To my knowledge, the Government has 2x ways to raise funds (other than taxes and direct income related means):
1. Print more money (I think this is the basis of your comment as "owning the bank") - sounds nice, but money is a simple concept, a promise to value the physical piece of paper to the amount printed on it. It requires substance behind it (actual physical value) or else it becomes worthless - if we stimulate our economy by printing more money, no-one will see any value in our money, and hence we will all end up a lot worse off as our wages and income remain fixed, but everything will require more dollars to purchase as the currency becomes devalued and hyper-inflation takes hold (this can destroy countries and is a spiral once started, super hard to stop).

2. Sell bonds to the international market - which are in my simple mind much like my mortgage. Australia demonstrates it has the capacity to repay (with interest) and people provide us cash and make a return as we pay it off over time. The more we "borrow" under this scheme, the higher our repayments become before we even start paying off the principal. As our ability to repay declines, so interest rates will go up as we become more risky, and then we find ourselves in a whole lot of strife and the downward spiral starts (just think Greece).
How much more QE must Japan (or even the USA) have to do to convince you that printing money doesn't cause hyperinflation?

Your information is way out of date! Money used to be linked to a substance with actual physical value (gold) until President Nixon unlinked it in the 1970s when he realised that America would run out of gold if he didn't. And from then on, most of the world has used floating currencies, which are technically superior anyway.

Aside from the speculation and international bond sales (which increase a currency's short term value at the expense of its long term value or vise versa) there are two things that boost a currency's value: the first is taxation (as a currency can't be useless if it's needed to pay tax) and the second is EXPORTS! And exports are usually the most important thing by far, because they ensure a currency's value is self correcting - if a currency devalues then exports are cheaper so more is exported and the currency stabilizes, whereas if its value rises then the exports get more expensive and its value falls.

Compare that with the pre 1970s situation: more money was printed but the currency was prevented from devaluing in real time so there was no increase in exports. Then eventually the government of the country in question was unable to keep its value artificially high and it collapsed (and currency collapse is the same thing as hyperinflation). Don't you think that preventing it from getting artificially high in the first place is the best way to prevent that situation?

If you're still worried about hyperinflation I'm happy to discuss as many examples (real or theoretical) as you want. Meanwhile I'll also mention that hyperinflation is actually very easy to stop: all it takes is a balanced budget.

Greece is totally screwed because it's unable to print money. But if Australia sells bonds on the international market, our ability to pay them back is 100% because we own the Reserve Bank and could print the money if needed. As long as the bonds are in our own currency (which they always are) then it won't cause hyperinflation.
I can see the arguments about the Reserve (an independent authority to exec Gov) holding rates too high for too long durnig the GFC - but Labour was pumping so much bloody cash into the economy I can see how they needed to manage infationary pressures.
Except that the inflationary pressures have been negligible since the GFC. The RBA board's not being reacting to inflation, they've been jumping at shadows, regarding any sign of economic success as an unacceptable inflation risk. The extra money that the government pumped into the economy was insufficient to fully compensate for the drop in the amount that the private sector was pumping in.

John Hewson (at the National Press Club) earlier this year criticised the RBA board's obsession with inflation at the expense of everything else. If it were up to me, I'd offer him the job of governing it.
All I really know about the Reserve bank is that I wouldn't want to be on the board - they will always be blamed for being too slow or too fast as rates movements always have positive and negative impacts for different sectors.
Except where inflation's a problem, low interest rates are good for practically all sectors.
The Reserve is just one part of a healthy economy - and another is minimal debt versus large debt. And by this, I don't implicitly mean we should be killing ourselves to attain immediate surplus, but we do need someone in charge who actually has a plan to navigate our way back to the freedom that comes with controlled finances and freedom to act autonomously and not in accordance with foreign bankers or ratings agencies.
Then I suggest you google "sectoral balances" because you seem to fail to realise the relationship between public and private debt.

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:39 am
by Waewick
There was a good article on business spectator about NZ's efforts to minimise a housing bubble by restricting lending at higher rates.

The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:51 pm
by Dog
Lol

The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:26 pm
by Dog
Oops

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:20 pm
by metro
So the present government investing in infrastructure, health and education is considered "waste", yet the alternative will pay polluters to not pollute, and will buy up all the boats from Indonesia.. what next? are they going to pay criminals to not commit crime? and they're ahead in the polls!?!?! :shock:

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:03 am
by Vee
The National Broadband Network nation-building infrastructure, fibre all the way FTTH / FTTP not the Coalition's FTTN model, is extremely important to me as vital for our future in a rapidly changing global economy.

Another important policy area is dealing with climate change. I just cannot reconcile how the Coalition's Direct Action and Green Army can be seen as a credible solution.

This detailed article in Business Spectator > Climate Spectator:
'Hunt damned by his own numbers' adds to my fears.
Worth a read if this topic interests you.
The Coalition is still yet to supply updated costings that demonstrate its Direct Action policy could reliably deliver on the 5 per cent emissions reduction target.

Since the Monash University/Sinclair Knight Merz analysis was released showing a $4 billion shortfall in the Coalition’s budget, shadow climate minister Greg Hunt has continued to maintain he is “confident” they will reach the target while stating the budget is capped and will not be increased. Hunt also now claims his 2010 costing was highly conservative. In support of this claim his office points out that Australia’s actual emissions have tracked substantially lower than originally envisaged, and international accounting rules now recognise natural carbon stores beyond forests such as carbon stored in soils. Consequently, the amount of abatement that needs to be acquired to meet the 2020 target has been slashed in half.
Check the article for the detailed analysis by Tristan Edis. 23/8/2013
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/art ... wn-numbers?

Conclusion here:
The problem for the Coalition is that their soil carbon estimates are fanciful as explained previously in Climate Spectator ...
ABC’s Lateline program has also shown the numbers to be ludicrous. Instead, according to environmental scientist and soil carbon expert Ben Rose, the Coalition might be able to obtain 2.5 million tonnes of verifiable abatement per year at a cost in the realm of $13.27.

If we were to accept the other costings by the Coalition above (which we really shouldn’t because they are highly likely to underestimate the cost of abatement, as explained here) then they could afford to purchase 32.5Mt of abatement per annum. Multiply that out by the six years of the program and it buys them 195Mt.

They are still 175 million tonnes short of the target, and that’s all using the Coalition’s own costings, with a simple adjustment for the fact their soil carbon estimates are completely unrealistic.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/art ... wn-numbers?

The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:53 am
by Dog
L

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:25 am
by sydneysider
There's no reason why voting should continue to be compulsory, but I don't think it'll change anytime soon because it's not a big enough issue with voters and would benefit the Coalition too much for other parties to not fight it tooth and nail. I think a sensible third option would be to introduce a three strikes policy so if people choose not to participate or make a mistake they can be warned instead of being slugged for $50.

The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:56 pm
by Dog
L

Re: The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:52 pm
by monotonehell
Dog wrote:
Dog wrote:Foot bridge project V. Buying 50 Indonesian fishing boats I will opt for the foot bridge plus extras any time, like the Tram extension it's good for SA and will be enjoyed for years to come.
This Labor Federal government has been working hard in partnership with the state Labor team to build local infrastructure to keep the SA economy ticking over.
I can't see an Abbott Liberal government giving SA anything except a cuts, cuts and more cuts.
So this ended up in the pub, obviously too sensitive for the foot bridge discussion thread, appears that its fine for good proportion of the bridge discussions to crap on about it being a "waste of money like the tram extension" ( obviously no politics there) lol
It ended up in the pub because you have to draw the LONGEST BOW possible to link an Adelaide Council Area issue with International Politics. Therefore off topic. Those other comments are probably off topic too and should be here, but moving posts is a technical PITA with this board so most moderators err on the side of lazy. ;)

The Federal Politics Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:57 pm
by Dog
Lol