News & Discussion: Trams

[monotonehell]

The bus system introduced in Curitiba did wonders for the city.

And no doubt it did, as did the Obahn revolutionise bus transport in Adelaide. But it is still a bus trying to mimick light rail, and given the choice in ride quality and comfort, speed of acceleration and maintanence cost, light rail is generally a preferred option, otherwise the likes of Gold Coast would have opted for the much cheaper BRT which is proving a huge hit up there.

So an empty bucket full of water is just trying to mimic a full bucket?

Your points don't seem to support your assertion of light rail being a preferred option:
* quality comfortable ride; Other than more turns, stopping and starting, this is completely down to the chosen fit-out of the vehicle. I find the fit-out of the Glenelg trams very uncomfortable.
* speed of acceleration: Busses can accelerate faster than rail. Rail services are often limited in acceleration and 'deceleration' for standing passenger safety.
* maintenance costs: The O-Bahn has continuously cost a fraction of an equivalent rail corridor over its life.

I don't doubt that light rail is the preferred option in some cases. But it's more preference through perception than actual facts. A bus based corridor with all the bolt ons of a rail corridor is often perceived the same in passengers' eyes. Examples as above, the O-Bahn and other BRTs around the World.

[claybro]

But BRT is generally chosen as a cost cutting excercise, often with the promise of eventual conversion to light rail. On the opinion of ride quality of bus over light rail, I suppose it is theoretically possible for a bus to ride as smooth or quietly as light rail, however once the cheaper option of BRT is chosen, it is usually a variation of a standard bus used, sometimes with some cosmetic changes. Given Adelaide has a direct comparison of the two modes, I'm not sure how you can say the ride quality , acellaration and noise levels of the Obahn even come close to the performance of the Glenelg tram, even in the latters poorly executed running. To design, manufacture and run a BRT with all the "bolt ons" including electrification as you describe, then the cost is getting up there with light rail anyway, as light rail cars are available in mass production from almost anywhere including Melbourne.

[ChillyPhilly]

Curitiba's BRT has two layers. One is 'Linhas Expresso Biarticulado' (B-Articulated Express Line) and 'Linhas Direta' (Direct Line). It has served the city extremely well since the work of mayor and later governor Jaime Lerner in the 1980s; in fact, not only did it serve the city well, it transformed it. Curitiba is easily the best city in which one can invest in Brazil.

The Bi-Articulated buses hold 270 people.

Map of both layers: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nsport.png
More geographically accurate map: https://cidco-smartcity.niua.org/wp-con ... 50x410.jpg
Bus capacities per line: https://graciagalias.files.wordpress.co ... tiba31.jpg

[rubberman]

The bus system introduced in Curitiba did wonders for the city.

And no doubt it did, as did the Obahn revolutionise bus transport in Adelaide. But it is still a bus trying to mimick light rail, and given the choice in ride quality and comfort, speed of acceleration and maintanence cost, light rail is generally a preferred option, otherwise the likes of Gold Coast would have opted for the much cheaper BRT which is proving a huge hit up there.

So an empty bucket full of water is just trying to mimic a full bucket?

Your points don't seem to support your assertion of light rail being a preferred option:
* quality comfortable ride; Other than more turns, stopping and starting, this is completely down to the chosen fit-out of the vehicle. I find the fit-out of the Glenelg trams very uncomfortable.
* speed of acceleration: Busses can accelerate faster than rail. Rail services are often limited in acceleration and 'deceleration' for standing passenger safety.
* maintenance costs: The O-Bahn has continuously cost a fraction of an equivalent rail corridor over its life.

I don't doubt that light rail is the preferred option in some cases. But it's more preference through perception than actual facts. A bus based corridor with all the bolt ons of a rail corridor is often perceived the same in passengers' eyes. Examples as above, the O-Bahn and other BRTs around the World.

Have to disagree. The poor fitout of existing trams is due to inexperienced selection by local authorities, rather than a characteristic of trams as such. We could have done better.

The supposed faster acceleration and braking of buses is a furphy. For any safe level of acceleration, trams and buses have the upper limit set by passenger safety considerations, not by how fast the vehicle theoretically can accelerate. Also, buses can move from side to side as well, introducing even further passenger instability problems. In terms of braking, magnetic track brakes ensure that trams can decelerate as quickly as buses. Possibly even better than "bendy" buses.

Having said all that, given that we don't really operate the Glenelg line to its capacity, and with second rate vehicle selection, it's pretty clear that the chances of running a large network economically aren't good.

It's why I predict a couple of short extensions, maybe to East Terrace in 2021, with anything major continually pushed back due to "budget constraints" or "needing Federal Government support". Along with more old Citadis for new prices with century old single truck technology.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6041/6309 ... 07a0_o.jpg

[claybro]

Definitely agree that the execution and current operation of the Glenelg tram is not a good example of light rail in general. Anyone having travelled to Europe where multiple cars are coupled together, and run at speed, with proper right of way and even used for freight would better appreciate the roll of light rail as opposed to BRT.

[adelaide transport]

Work on the North Terrace Tram extension is due to start this month-no sign of any action yet?
Wonder if it will be delayed?

[rubberman]

Work on the North Terrace Tram extension is due to start this month-no sign of any action yet?
Wonder if it will be delayed?

There's a similar length of new track being laid in Melbourne at the moment. It looks like taking 2-2.5 months all up. So, if the North Terrace extension starts early September, they should have plenty of time to finish before the Christmas rush. You'd also think that they'd be doing it quickly so that disruption time is minimised, so it maybe could be completed in a couple of months if everyone exdigitated.


Start worrying if the works aren't in full swing by mid October.

[adelaide transport]

Work on the North Terrace Tram extension is due to start this month-no sign of any action yet?
Wonder if it will be delayed?

There's a similar length of new track being laid in Melbourne at the moment. It looks like taking 2-2.5 months all up. So, if the North Terrace extension starts early September, they should have plenty of time to finish before the Christmas rush. You'd also think that they'd be doing it quickly so that disruption time is minimised, so it maybe could be completed in a couple of months if everyone exdigitated.


Start worrying if the works aren't in full swing by mid October.

We have 3 more Citadis trams coming from Madrid,as well the Government has stated that both new extensions would be operating by the end of the year(probably at the same time as the opening of the O-Bahn tunnel,and overhaul of the timetables.)
With an election supposedly next March the Government will be desperate to play up both initiatives to try and get maximum mileage out of them!

[rubberman]

Of course, if the Liberals can block supply, there might be an early election. Then all bets are off.

[Norman]

Of course, if the Liberals can block supply, there might be an early election. Then all bets are off.

Unlikely. The tenders have already been signed.

[Haso]

Of course, if the Liberals can block supply, there might be an early election. Then all bets are off.

Unlikely. The tenders have already been signed.

Yes, but York Civil can be compensated and we might finish with – Street car named desire…

[Ben]

I walked up North Terrace today and no signs of any work.

[citywatcher]

I walked up North Terrace today and no signs of any work.

Sent from my GT-S7275T using Tapatalk

[timtam20292]

Maybe work will start in a few weeks/towards the end of July.

[rubberman]

Maybe work will start in a few weeks/towards the end of July.

Or maybe in August? Or September? Or October? Has a definite start date been announced?

Also, aren't DPTI going to do a re-lay in King Wm. St. Sth? That might happen first. On the other hand, since installation of crossings and pointwork is going to happen at the Nth. Tce. and King Wm. St. intersection, maybe they will coordinate all those works so that the tram service is only interrupted in one period?

Has anyone asked DPTI? Or are they waiting for a Ministerial presser?