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The express services are still quite slow, since a lot of the track is in poor condition and there are loads of speed restrictions across the entire network. The Belair Line is unreliable because of the passing loop system that is used on the line beyond Goodwood. There isn't really much point having express running on the network until some lines begin using three-track operation like the Burnley Group in Melbourne (between Burnley and Box Hill) and the Beenleigh and Gold Coast Lines (between South Brisbane and soon Salisbury).

I think there's going to need to be a plan for the entire suburban rail network soon, rather than little potch jobs here and there. I share bdm's vision for cross suburban rail operations via the CBD like that in Brisbane. Obviously this requires boring deep level tunnels under the CBD and building underground stations. Most likely 4 tunnels, 2 stacked on top of each other to form two levels of tunnels, much like the way the tunnels are stacked in Melbourne's City Loop. Meaning the stations would need to be 3 levels - one for an underground concourse, and two for the platform levels. One of these stations would need to be an underground extension to the existing Adelaide Station. It would also require four tunnel portals south of River Torrens as well as four north of Goodwood as well as a bit of reconstruction around Goodwood itself. That would improve cross town public transport connectivity as well as provide improved rail access to the CBD. It would also increase capacity at Adelaide Station for terminating suburban services and provide opportunity for longer distance services to use the station.

More dreaming. Adelaide needs a cheap solution to its PT woes. Tunnels, subways, ect are never going to be built in Adelaide.

Adelaide does not have the funds like the other mainland capitals, that’s why nothing has been done up until now, there is no money for any vision. Patch jobs are always going to be the solution, unfortunately.

AG wrote:The express services are still quite slow, since a lot of the track is in poor condition and there are loads of speed restrictions across the entire network. The Belair Line is unreliable because of the passing loop system that is used on the line beyond Goodwood. There isn't really much point having express running on the network until some lines begin using three-track operation like the Burnley Group in Melbourne (between Burnley and Box Hill) and the Beenleigh and Gold Coast Lines (between South Brisbane and soon Salisbury).

I think there's going to need to be a plan for the entire suburban rail network soon, rather than little potch jobs here and there. I share bdm's vision for cross suburban rail operations via the CBD like that in Brisbane. Obviously this requires boring deep level tunnels under the CBD and building underground stations. Most likely 4 tunnels, 2 stacked on top of each other to form two levels of tunnels, much like the way the tunnels are stacked in Melbourne's City Loop. Meaning the stations would need to be 3 levels - one for an underground concourse, and two for the platform levels. One of these stations would need to be an underground extension to the existing Adelaide Station. It would also require four tunnel portals south of River Torrens as well as four north of Goodwood as well as a bit of reconstruction around Goodwood itself. That would improve cross town public transport connectivity as well as provide improved rail access to the CBD. It would also increase capacity at Adelaide Station for terminating suburban services and provide opportunity for longer distance services to use the station.

If we had only two lines (Noarlunga-Gawler, Port-Belair) then we only need four tracks going through Adelaide station. Provided the turnbacks at the end of lines are well designed, we only need a limited number of trains too.

Because we only need those four in Adelaide station, there's room to throw a standard gauge one in for interstate services.

The rail network could be so damn good if it got a bit of hefty funding... they wouldn't need to build all these bloody over/underpasses if they just got people onto PT. That was always the plan when they (oh so intelligently) abandoned MATS.

AG wrote:…I think there's going to need to be a plan for the entire suburban rail network soon, rather than little potch jobs here and there.

A plan is definitely required and the sooner they do it the better.

I share bdm's vision for cross suburban rail operations via the CBD like that in Brisbane.

I share that vision as well.

Obviously this requires boring deep level tunnels under the CBD and building underground stations.

I don’t think you need to go too far underground, but just under the surface. There’s the option of laying precast tunnel sections into trenches. Of course many services like water, gas, electricity and telephone lines would have to be re-accommodated. Also only one trench would be excavated at a time to minimise road traffic. The biggest hassle would be working around the new Glenelg tram line extension.

Most likely 4 tunnels, 2 stacked on top of each other to form two levels of tunnels, much like the way the tunnels are stacked in Melbourne's City Loop. Meaning the stations would need to be 3 levels - one for an underground concourse, and two for the platform levels.

This is assuming you want both the Noarlunga-Gawler and Outer Harbour-Belair stacked over each other. There are other options.

1. Aligning them side-by-side.

2. The Gawler-Noarlunga could go underneath King William Street and the Outer Harbour-Belair under North Terrace and Pulteney Streets. This way you wouldn’t need to stack tunnels over each other, and service another area of the CBD. When the two lines meet up at North Terrace-King William Street the Gawler-Noarlunga line would have to go slightly deeper, maybe even under the Outer Harbour-Belair line so to avoid building foundations (either Parliament House or the AMP Building).

3. Run only a pair of tracks down King William Street and use that as a loop linking Keswick.

One of these stations would need to be an underground extension to the existing Adelaide Station.

The station extension could be built under North Terrace around the area of the current Adelaide Station Arcade (pedestrian underpass).

It would also require four tunnel portals south of River Torrens as well as four north of Goodwood as well as a bit of reconstruction around Goodwood itself.

The portals at the railyards shouldn’t be too much of a problem. They tunnels south of King William Street could follow: South Terrace/ANZAC Highway to Keswick, Peacock/Greenhill Roads to Keswick and the Adelaide-Glenelg tram line to Goodwood.

And if you want to spend even more money: the Outer Harbour-Belair line could just go straight down Pulteney Street, Unley Road and Belair Road to resurface near the Mitcham Station.

There are so many interesting options when you underground lines in the CBD.

That would improve cross town public transport connectivity as well as provide improved rail access to the CBD. It would also increase capacity at Adelaide Station for terminating suburban services and provide opportunity for longer distance services to use the station.

Absolutely.

Cheers

Cut and cover is too disruptive. This is exactly why they stopped using it to construct lines on the London Underground after the 1880s and went deep level instead. If people are already protesting about the small disruptions being caused by the tram line extension, imagine the outburst for an underground cut and cover rail project. I don't think it would even be possible anyway due to spacial and design limitations, the biggest problem being the foundations of Origin Energy Building on the corner of King William Street and North Terrace. The curves that the rail lines follow cannot be too sharp, which means the line cannot follow North Terrace and King William Street exactly at this area.

In Melbourne's City Loop, there is a similar situation where the lines between Parliament and Melbourne Central stations cross under the foundations of several major skyscrapers near Spring and La Trobe Streets. They used tunnel boring techniques for the entire project except at the tunnel portals and at Melbourne Central, where they used the cut and cover technique only for the station. It caused major disruption as they had to demolish several old buildings on the north side of La Trobe Street so they could redivert La Trobe Street to allow construction of the station. But this occurred in an area of the CBD that wasn't so heavily developed at the time, unlike King William Street. The only place I can see where cut and cover could be achieved would be Victoria Square, but closing the square for several years would cause protest, understandably as well.

I suppose King William Street is wide enough to fit 4 tunnels side by side plus room for platforms as well, meaning the stations are only 2 levels. However, I think the twin stacked tunnel design is more effective (cost and space wise) and allows for tunnels for other uses (road or rail) to be constructed around or next to it, although I suppose there isn't anything wrong with having 4 tunnels next to each other. My idea was that Grange/Outer Harbor and Gawler Line services run in the upper level tunnels while Belair/Tonsley and Noarlunga Line services run in the lower level tunnels running under their respective upper level tunnels. This allows for cross platform interchange between services.

Three levels under, with stations at Rundle Mall/Grenfell St, Victoria Square and South Terrace. RM/GST station would have to be big and able to handle a lot of commuters. The other two much less so.

As for the station design:

First level is small, just for ticket booths and timetable services etc. Manned from 5am-1am

Second level is the Noarlunga/Gawler line. Track on the West goes to Gawler. Track on the East goes to Noarlunga.

Third level is the Belair/Outer Harbour line. Track on the West goes to Outer Harbour, Track on the East goes to Belair.

bdm wrote:Three levels under, with stations at Rundle Mall/Grenfell St, Victoria Square and South Terrace. RM/GST station would have to be big and able to handle a lot of commuters. The other two much less so.

As for the station design:

First level is small, just for ticket booths and timetable services etc. Manned from 5am-1am

Second level is the Noarlunga/Gawler line. Track on the West goes to Gawler. Track on the East goes to Noarlunga.

Third level is the Belair/Outer Harbour line. Track on the West goes to Outer Harbour, Track on the East goes to Belair.

I agree with the station locations, as well as one under North Terrace slightly south west of the current station (meaning the current underpass forms the eastern most entrance). But the concourses shouldn't be small otherwise they could become overcrowded during peak hour. The concourse for a station located between Grenfell and Rundle should have a few underground pedestrian links to a few places such as the Myer Centre as well as entrances direct to street level. Victoria Square could have underground links to the eastern part of the Central Market and possibly City Central.

Instead of having a north bound track and a south bound track on each level, I think having both north bound tracks on the upper level and then both south bound tracks on the lower level is better for all stations, except at North Terrace. This reduces the number of passengers changing levels just to change services as they would only have to walk across to the opposite platform on the same level to change services. It also allows trains to use crossovers to the other tunnel to allow for a variety of cross suburban services or during an emergency or trackwork. North Terrace would be a bit different with some tunnels changing places between North Terrace and Rundle Mall, with the Noarlunga and Outer Harbor/Grange bound tunnels on the same level, and the Gawler and Tonsley/Belair bound tunnels on the other.

Can people tell me how a subway in adelaide would be justified? We don't have the rail patronage, urban population, or size to need it, and we probably won't in the future. Although I'd love to scale the stairs of a subway station in adelaide, it's never going to happen, nor should it, especially with the tram soon to be serving all of KWS.

Personally, I would like to see the rail system converted to a tram-train hybrid as has been done in some cities of Germany. This would allow "trains" from the suburbs to continue throughout the city as trams. Larger trams could be used for the existing more popular rail lines such eg Gawler & Noarlunga, while smaller ones such as the Flexity Classics currently used could be used on the Tonsley line, during off-peak, and on inner city lines. At the risk of sounding pretentious here's my ideas:

-Electrify
-Convert all passenger rail to standard gauge
-Create a city loop which would service the retail and business areas, and all of North terrace
-Create "through-lines" in the railway station, to allow trams to leave the station to join these city loops
-Replace the existing O-Bahn with rail
-Create a line through to the parade and one to O'Connell street
-Purchase of new rolling stock based on needs of each particular line

AtD wrote:TooFar, our existing railcars have a top speed of 160km/h and a capacity of 110 seated passengers per car, in a maximum of six car sets, meaning 660 seated passengers. A bus, on the other hand, has a max speed of 100km/h and capacity of ~80 seated passengers. Then compare Sydney's double-decker trains running in eight-car sets. Even with a dedicated corridor, buses just don't have the numbers next to heavy rail, sorry.

Are you sure our existing railcars have a top speed of 160km/h? I thought the 3000s had a lower gearing than that, and I know the Jumbos have a top speed of 120km/h.

As for buses, as well as the issue of line capacity, terminal capacity would be a problem.

Also, O-bahns are a specialist mode, and most places are better suited to rail of some sort. Adelaide's NE suburbs were an exception, but the mountains and the sea constrain most of Adelaide's outer suburbs, so they would be better suited to rail.

What about a Flinders O-Bahn?
http://www.galoresoftware.net/MapR7.jpg

That idea was scrapped a few years back because of its $200 mil cost.

It is good though.

Adelaide will only be able to afford a decent public transport system once we shrink the urban growth boundaries and make public transport a high priority amongst planners.

Growth should be consolidated around the major centres, being:
- Adelaide
- Nourlunga
- Marion
- Port Adelaide
- Salisbury
- Elizabeth
- Gawler
- Tea Tree Gully

Then we could have fast, efficient train/tram/O-bahn services (take your pick) running at 5 minute intervals max at peak hour and 10-15 during the day.

Mawson Lakes was a cock-up the money should have been spent on rejuvenating Elizabeth and Salisbury making them desirable places to live again.

Growth beyond nourlunga is impossible to service. (this also includes hospitals, libraries etc.)

If we make well designed compact urban centres everyone will have better access to open space, better services (including decent internet speeds)

Being in Melbourne right now, the trams are just so efficient. It would work marvellously in Adelaide, considering its fairly proportionate grid layout. Trams can run North/South East/West quite easily. The Eastern burb's would benefit well from this. And get rid of the Obahn! No other city has it, and its crammed in peak hour, so just convert the thing to heavy rail where capacity is doubled and travel time is essentially the same.

So your saying just because no other city has the Obarn (which is untrue). We should just rip up a perfectly good system and lose our iconic pubic transport.

Right...

Its like saying Melbourne should get rid its tram system, because other cities don't have it.

crawf wrote:So your saying just because no other city has the Obarn (which is untrue). We should just rip up a perfectly good system and lose our iconic pubic transport.

Right...

Its like saying Melbourne should get rid its tram system, because other cities don't have it.

umm crawf, thousands of cities across the world have trams......