[VIS] Passenger Trains to Mount Barker

[SBD]

The real cost of road fright is nowhere near covered by the users, and it has been a false economy sifting everything to road freight. Costs in road deterioration, extra congestion, pollution including emissions and roadside residue , noise, road fatalaties..the list goes on. If they are really committed to reducing emissions, and not just palming off cost, all fright lines would be electrified, and long distance freight transported by train, with the last mile stuff being handled by smaller regional trucks. The amount of "road trains" creeping further and further into urban areas is dangerous and a blight on amenity. The relatively small impost on freight operations for road use will in no way encourage the general move to rail- but before the big stick of dis-incentive there also needs to be a massive increase in rail spending-which is ironic, because SA nearly went bankrupt, under Web building one of the best rail rail systems in the world from the 1920's. What a waste of perfectly good infrastructure, and very surprising a Labor state government sold it all off to the Feds, who effectively palmed it off to private entities... who have in turn abandoned most of it.

The government can't just make road freight go away by taxing it more if it doesn't also recreate the alternative rail network to modern standards. Victoria has been investing in rural rail restoration and upgrades for the last decade, but SA is only building more overtaking lanes and road bypasses, and even they are being done on the cheap!

[mattblack]

A leading European train manufacturer says it will fund a $2.5m trial to prove a passenger rail service between Mount Barker and Adelaide is viable.

Talgo, known for its production and distribution of high-speed trains, is calling on the State Government to grant its support for a passenger rail trial to prove an express service could be run within 45 minutes, opposed to the Infrastructure SA’s 71 minute estimate.

The 26 minute reduction is based on modelling of Talgo’s rolling stock on the Australian Rail Track Corporation line.

Head of business development Jesus Rodriguez said the trial would come at no cost to the Australian taxpayers with funds to be obtained via Fondo para la Internacionalización de la Empresa, a grant scheme managed by the Spanish State Secretary for Trade.

“The first step will be to get the local government involved, in this case, the South Australian government and once we get (the letter), we will get the proposal to the Spanish embassy...to get the green light (and) get the funds that we need for this trial,” Mr Rodriguez said.

“There will be a pool of projects that we will be competing with but we are quite positive that we will be valued and that we could get this funding from the government of Spain.

“We have done similar successful trials in other countries, including the United States, Russia, Kazakhstan and India...and now we want to come to South Australia.”

Mr Rodriguez said Talgo would deliver the project in partnership with former SA transport department bureaucrat Luigi Rossi and aerospace engineer Edwin Michell.

The duo have been campaigning for fast trains since 2018 and recently presented Infrastructure SA with a $150m rail proposal between Mount Barker and Adelaide.

“A lot of people have been working on this proposal for a long time and we are now in discussions with the ARTC to gain access to the freight corridor for the purpose of this trial,” Mr Rossi said.

“For now, however, what we really need is to get the letter of support to enable Talgo’s funding application to proceed.”

Shadow Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Tom Koutsantonis said Labor would back the trail should it win the election.

“Labor is prepared to see if this technology can work, especially since the Talgo trial would be at no cost to the taxpayer.”

Transport Minister Corey Wingard said a detailed proposal had not yet been received.

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/messenge ... 388f2b76e6

Anyone know what ever happend to this??

[PeFe]

Nothing to see here....move along......move along.

Absolute pie-in-the-sky proposal that sane people knew would go nowhere..."express service in 45 minutes".....on that train corridor?

[ChillyPhilly]

My reply did not post!

Basically the trial was approved in 2022 but Talgo was still trying to secure funding from the Spanish Government.

The official report, Mount Barker Mass Transit Study (read it HERE), found 71 minutes at present.

The idea of tilt trains would allow faster running on curves.

[SBD]

My reply did not post!

Basically the trial was approved in 2022 but Talgo was still trying to secure funding from the Spanish Government.

The official report, Mount Barker Mass Transit Study (read it HERE), found 71 minutes at present.

The idea of tilt trains would allow faster running on curves.

How much track work would be required on curves to support tilt trains? I imagine the lateral forces for a fast short train are quite different compared to pulling a long train round the bend. If work is required (different rail profile, heavier ballast, different ties/dog spikes), who would be expected to pay for that on the ARTC line?

[claybro]

I really think the relevant authorities in SA are deliberately overcomplicating this, so they don't have to deal with it. The old bluebirds used to do this trip in under 50 minutes. Surely a modern V/locity type train could do this in at least that amount of time. If a European company want to provide a trial train without track upgrades- happy days. If the passing loops are an issue- then it would not be an outrageous expense to create more. With some creative timetableing, hills interchanges and park and rides, this is surely a better option than more and more buses on an already crowded freeway, more and more buses on Glen Osmond road and in the CBD. Not only will this help with Mt barkers growth, but continuing the train to Murray Bridge would help promote it as a dormitory option as well. Welcome back to the 1950's SA, where trains could some how navigate the alps in a timely way.

[SBD]

I really think the relevant authorities in SA are deliberately overcomplicating this, so they don't have to deal with it. The old bluebirds used to do this trip in under 50 minutes. Surely a modern V/locity type train could do this in at least that amount of time. If a European company want to provide a trial train without track upgrades- happy days. If the passing loops are an issue- then it would not be an outrageous expense to create more. With some creative timetableing, hills interchanges and park and rides, this is surely a better option than more and more buses on an already crowded freeway, more and more buses on Glen Osmond road and in the CBD. Not only will this help with Mt barkers growth, but continuing the train to Murray Bridge would help promote it as a dormitory option as well. Welcome back to the 1950's SA, where trains could some how navigate the alps in a timely way.

You can't "continue" to Murray Bridge without a new track - Mount Barker Junction (between Nairne and Balhannah) is where the Mount Barker (Victor Harbor) line branches off of the main Melbourne line that passes through Murray Bridge.

Mount Barker says it wants to be SA's second city. If Mount Barker or Murray Bridge are to be separate cities from Adelaide, they need to develop so that very few residents want to commute to Adelaide. That also solves the congestion on the SE Freeway and Glen Osmond Road.

If most residents of Mount Barker or Murray Bridge are set up to commute to Adelaide, we need to stop bagging Riverlea, which is faster and safer to commute to Adelaide. Instead, they should be developing and maintaining local industries. Murray Bridge has Thomas Foods International and Big River Pork, as well as Mobilong Prison and various warehouses and a zoo at Monarto.

A lot of Mount Barker district industry has been closed in the push to make it a suburb of Adelaide. Now it needs new industries to separate itself from Adelaide again. Thomas Foods still has a facility at Lobethal, the Mount Barker Hospital has been promised an upgrade or replacement, and there is plenty of work for building and land development workers at present. They both need university campuses (or new universities, but that doesn't seem to be the current preference)

[rev]

My reply did not post!

Basically the trial was approved in 2022 but Talgo was still trying to secure funding from the Spanish Government.

The official report, Mount Barker Mass Transit Study (read it HERE), found 71 minutes at present.

The idea of tilt trains would allow faster running on curves.

How much track work would be required on curves to support tilt trains? I imagine the lateral forces for a fast short train are quite different compared to pulling a long train round the bend. If work is required (different rail profile, heavier ballast, different ties/dog spikes), who would be expected to pay for that on the ARTC line?

More like welcome to South Australia, where everything that isn't the status quo goes to the hard basket.

[SBD]

My reply did not post!

Basically the trial was approved in 2022 but Talgo was still trying to secure funding from the Spanish Government.

The official report, Mount Barker Mass Transit Study (read it HERE), found 71 minutes at present.

The idea of tilt trains would allow faster running on curves.

How much track work would be required on curves to support tilt trains? I imagine the lateral forces for a fast short train are quite different compared to pulling a long train round the bend. If work is required (different rail profile, heavier ballast, different ties/dog spikes), who would be expected to pay for that on the ARTC line?

More like welcome to South Australia, where everything that isn't the status quo goes to the hard basket.

In other words, you don’t know if it would require significant work either.

[rev]

How much track work would be required on curves to support tilt trains? I imagine the lateral forces for a fast short train are quite different compared to pulling a long train round the bend. If work is required (different rail profile, heavier ballast, different ties/dog spikes), who would be expected to pay for that on the ARTC line?

More like welcome to South Australia, where everything that isn't the status quo goes to the hard basket.

In other words, you don’t know if it would require significant work either.

The issue isn't whether any of us here on S-A know, but rather is this state, are our elected representatives, serious about expanding public transport usage particularly through an expanded public transport network.
The answer to that is they're not serious.

Outside of a Spanish company proposing to trial a train run, is there anything else happening, is the government doing anything, are they moving towards building up this infrastructure and services? No.

If they were serious, if they had any plans, or intentions to expand the PT network particularly beyond the metropolitan area, ie regional rail services, you can safely assume that significant work would be required.
Why? When was the last time regional rail ran in South Australia to/from Adelaide?

Of course there's probably a dozen reports all which have drawn the same pre-determined politically influenced conclusion.

And it will cost an arm and a leg, because so much in this state is neglected and not maintained, or downgraded or eliminated.
The usual excuse, "it cost too much". Or the ingrained mentality that the state bank collapse is to blame for everything.

Victoria has significant regional rail services to/from Melbourne. They have a population that can support it. They also have an economy and localised economies to support those populations, and investments in PT services across the state.
What's lacking here in SA? A population and an economy.
What do our politicians think will fix everything? Bringing in migrants and hoping for the best.

It all comes down to shit political leadership for decades.

[[Shuz]]

I'm pretty sure there's been a couple of reports that have found a tourist train service using the 3000 railcar set to the Barossa wine region that runs on an hourly service is viable. But no, your right, shitty political leadership.

[SBD]

More like welcome to South Australia, where everything that isn't the status quo goes to the hard basket.

In other words, you don’t know if it would require significant work either.

The issue isn't whether any of us here on S-A know, but rather is this state, are our elected representatives, serious about expanding public transport usage particularly through an expanded public transport network.
The answer to that is they're not serious.

Outside of a Spanish company proposing to trial a train run, is there anything else happening, is the government doing anything, are they moving towards building up this infrastructure and services? No.

If they were serious, if they had any plans, or intentions to expand the PT network particularly beyond the metropolitan area, ie regional rail services, you can safely assume that significant work would be required.
Why? When was the last time regional rail ran in South Australia to/from Adelaide?

Of course there's probably a dozen reports all which have drawn the same pre-determined politically influenced conclusion.

And it will cost an arm and a leg, because so much in this state is neglected and not maintained, or downgraded or eliminated.
The usual excuse, "it cost too much". Or the ingrained mentality that the state bank collapse is to blame for everything.

Victoria has significant regional rail services to/from Melbourne. They have a population that can support it. They also have an economy and localised economies to support those populations, and investments in PT services across the state.
What's lacking here in SA? A population and an economy.
What do our politicians think will fix everything? Bringing in migrants and hoping for the best.

It all comes down to shit political leadership for decades.

What's lacking is not just a population - it's a regional population that supports regional cities that aren't just commuter dormitories of Adelaide, nor just large country towns providing local services to the surrounding farms. Mount Gambier, Murray Bridge, Whyalla, Port Lincoln etc have had their local industry run down, and infrastructure shrunk down in favour of more centralised infrastructure in Adelaide. There are no modern large hospitals outside of greater Adelaide, no universities, and most industry has been scaled down and automated so it doesn't require as many staff as in "the good old days". A lot of mines are now FIFO rather than supporting a local mining town. The result is that Adelaide and any country town within commuting distance has a "housing crisis" shortage, and anywhere too far to commute to Adelaide has empty houses, vacant blocks, and a shortage of skilled and professional workers. The Federal Government considers the whole state including Adelaide to be "regional", s it is up to the state government to provide incentive for people (SA-born or immigrants) to move or stay in country areas. Cash helps, but it's not the only thing that matters. Lifestyle and culture are much harder to develop and promote, so the "easy fix" is to just pretend it is only about money.

[rhino]

What's lacking is not just a population - it's a regional population that supports regional cities that aren't just commuter dormitories of Adelaide, nor just large country towns providing local services to the surrounding farms. Mount Gambier, Murray Bridge, Whyalla, Port Lincoln etc have had their local industry run down, and infrastructure shrunk down in favour of more centralised infrastructure in Adelaide. There are no modern large hospitals outside of greater Adelaide, no universities, and most industry has been scaled down and automated so it doesn't require as many staff as in "the good old days". A lot of mines are now FIFO rather than supporting a local mining town. The result is that Adelaide and any country town within commuting distance has a "housing crisis" shortage, and anywhere too far to commute to Adelaide has empty houses, vacant blocks, and a shortage of skilled and professional workers. The Federal Government considers the whole state including Adelaide to be "regional", s it is up to the state government to provide incentive for people (SA-born or immigrants) to move or stay in country areas. Cash helps, but it's not the only thing that matters. Lifestyle and culture are much harder to develop and promote, so the "easy fix" is to just pretend it is only about money.

What's lacking is vision. Land is cheaper in rural areas - why isn't industry taking advantage of that and moving to the regions? Because to transport necessary materials to the region and product to Adelaide removes the cost advantages gained by the cheaper land. How can this be resolved? One way would be by the Government subsidising transport costs for industries willing to set up or move to the regions.

How will this help? Well workers have families. Families require services. The workers who provide these services also have families, so more services are required. And those workers have families. etc.etc. So to get the ball rolling - how about subsidising freight to get finished products and necessary materials out toand in from the regions?

[Nort]

Mount Barker says it wants to be SA's second city. If Mount Barker or Murray Bridge are to be separate cities from Adelaide, they need to develop so that very few residents want to commute to Adelaide. That also solves the congestion on the SE Freeway and Glen Osmond Road.

That's entirely unrealistic as a concept. The distance means that there will always be lots of people commuting, and I think you would struggle to find many if indeed any examples of major population bases at equivalent distance that don't have massive amounts of cross employment. Having more employment opportunities in Mount Barker itself is a good goal, but rather than reducing commutes down the hill it will probably just increase those commuting up to Mount Barker.

Admitting the realities of where Mount Barker is and where it is inevitably going doesn't mean people should stop "bagging" developments like Riverlea, actually it's the exact opposite. The lived local examples we now have (which line up with existing national and international references as well) show that if it is possible for a location to be a commuter base it will become one.

The problem with Riverlea is it's proponents pretending a lot of the time that isn't the case, while directly acknowledging it in their marketing.

The mistakes that were made with Mount Barker are well acknowledged, and we are now seeing the costly roadworks to try and relieve the bottlenecks, and this ongoing discussion on how to improve public transport.

We need new developments to house people, but we also need them to be built now in ways that they don't run into the same inevitable problems again in ways that are much more costly than if they had been done right from the start.

[claybro]

The population of the Mount Barker district is around 40k. The population of Adelaide is 1.4 million. In most other states, indeed in many similar situations in the world this type of setup would be connected by a relatively rapid and frequent train. In the case of Europe this may look like a light rail connecting surrounding villages to the main city, in Australia either diesel or electric heavy rail. It is surely desirable to have some moderately sized towns separate but well connected to Adelaide, rather than continue the urban sprawl, without decent rural greenbelts. I just don't understand what is so hard about upgrading a single exiting rail route between 2 large existing and growing population centers. We're not talking about a shinkanzen here. Just a train that competes with a bus time wise, but can carry volumes more commuters, in more comfort and safety. I beggars belief that up until the 70's SA ran regular rail services to regional areas when the population was much smaller than today, but now its somehow all too hard. SA has got to get away from just throwing more and more buses on the roads, and as the experience of Victoria shows, that once regional towns are connected by somewhat rapid rail connections, the towns benefit by the increased population, amenity and therefore the employment for all the services that go with the new residents.