Toll Roads in Adelaide

[claybro]

The discussion atm seems to be focusing on using tolls to fund the roads.

I think that tolls serve two equally important purposes, funding the roads and putting a price on using the roads.

Imagine if water in SA was "free" (paid for by the taxpayer). Do you think we would have a greater or lesser shortage of water if there was no incentive to use less? The same needs to apply to individual roads in our road system. The most expensive and valuable roads need to be priced so that their use is not taken for granted by city commuters, soccer mums etc and freed up for industries that need it instead. Vehicles that have a high enough economic importance (truckies see no problem with tolls if it shortens their time because time is money) will be happy to pay the tolls. Vehicles that have a low economic importance (daily city commuters who can easily catch public transport) may refuse to pay the tolls and seek alternative transport methods instead.

Exactly

[claybro]

I think if a comprehensive plan for a full North/South transport corridor Port Wakefield to Victor.. with a timeframe say 30 years construction, and equal amounts spent on a North /South commuter rail line using the new freeway alignment negating the need to change trains in the city ie a limited stops express service, would allow people to see exactly how much it will cost and where the money is going. It could start with some sort of levy to get it going, then revert to tolls once up and running. Most of the drivers I speak to have no issues with tolls. Many of us travel to other states regularly and see what is being achieved with tolls and levies there. It is the current bit by bit shambles in this state with no future funding plans that frustrates citizens and no clear plan for construction or timeframe or even what is required that frustrates us the most.

[Aidan]

And that's the state government's latest way of funding road improvements: they've ceased issuing the windscreen stickers to remind the drivers when the rego's due, in order to maximize the revenue from the fines they charge for not having the vehicles registered.

You're kidding right? They send out a notice, so it's no different then paying any other bill on time. In fact it's even easier as they also have the EzyReg app which automatically reminds you and adds the due date in your calendar.

No I'm serious. My sister's fiancée's sister never received a notice and copped a huge fine (plus the major inconvenience of not being able to finish driving home after the police stopped her).

[Aidan]

I think if a comprehensive plan for a full North/South transport corridor Port Wakefield to Victor.. with a timeframe say 30 years construction, and equal amounts spent on a North /South commuter rail line using the new freeway alignment negating the need to change trains in the city ie a limited stops express service,

While I agree we need through trains, a freeway alignment wouldn't be of much use to do so because unlike the freeways, the trains need to directly serve placrs of high demand, so we need a railway under the City. And I think a 30 year construction timeframe is far too long.

would allow people to see exactly how much it will cost and where the money is going. It could start with some sort of levy to get it going, then revert to tolls once up and running. Most of the drivers I speak to have no issues with tolls. Many of us travel to other states regularly and see what is being achieved with tolls and levies there. It is the current bit by bit shambles in this state with no future funding plans that frustrates citizens and no clear plan for construction or timeframe or even what is required that frustrates us the most.

It is a major frustration, but having the money available and spending it inefficiently is just as bad.

I work in an industry which relies on fast efficient movement of trades and materials. I also work in other state offices. I can assure you all, the road system in Adelaide, peak hours aside is the most inefficiant. Appart from a short time in peak hours the freeways of Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth work well in moving vehicles and materials over long distance in a short time with 80-100km/h the norm. Here in Adel.even in times of light traffic, the non sequenced traffic lights here are mind boggling

Actually the traffic lights here are sequenced.

and make a trip from Northern Adelaide industrial areas to the South a slow and frustrating journey. Even on South road, every little cross road, pedestrian crossing, school etc, all have traffic lights. It will not be suitable to bung in a few overpasses/ underpasses. This will not bring the speed of the journey up to par whith what is experienced interstate. It needs to be planned now in i'ts ENTIRE length 80-100 km/h Regency to Darlington, costed and then figure out the required way of funding be it tolls or whatever. Aidan seems to favour a tollway for the Northern connector, but not South Road at it's most conjested, slowest point. I dont understand, it should all be tolled /levied or shadow tolled by the methods already discussed.

Although bunging in a few overpasses, underpasses and transverse bridges wouldn't make it as fast as its interstate counterparts, the objective should be serving our transport needs, not keeping up with the Vics/Cornstalkers/Banana Benders!

A full freeway would only save abut ten minutes over a grade separated South Road, but would cost billions of dollars more. Meanwhile South Road is not our only road! The benefits would be far higher if that extra money were instead spent on upgrading our other roads and railways.

And there's another reason for my opposition: the enormous amount of property acquisition and demolition required would be socially unacceptable, and the extra noise could be a problem even with noisewalls. Therefore the road would need to be underground. But if we're going to build an undergrund road, I'd rather it go where it most increases connectivity. The Morphett Road corridor (currently interrupted by an airport but not currently serving it) would bring much greater benefits. But even with tolls it's unlikely to be affordable any time soon. Making South Road non stop is a good interim solution.

[claybro]

the enormous amount of property acquisition and demolition required would be socially unacceptable

simply upgrading existing South Road with grade separtated intersections would require a lot of land aquesition anyway. South Road in sections thorugh Melrose Park cannot be widened any further without property aquestion. Without widening the road and leaving business along its length, you really only allow 1 free flowing lane in the centre of each side.(A lot of money to spend for only 1 free lane.) Grade separation will be required at Henley Beach /Sir Don/ Richmond and goodness only knows how they are going to sort out the mess through Castle Plaza with some 5 stes of lights in the space of 1km. wihtout significant widenening or tunnelling. If you leave the businesses along both sides of South road, well they all need access via service lanes and lights etc. (more widening) Flyovers/tunnels/service roads...we might as well ahve just built a freeway. Also, there is no point having sequenced traffic lights, if the traffic is at a standstill due to lack of physical capacity. Added to this I have noticed there are still major new developements being built right alongside South Road. This is madness as the government has already decided that this is to be the North/South route. Your proposal of limited upgrades adds up to billions for what would only be a second rate major coridoor. If you think 30 years is too long to wait, well in 30 years time with your plan we will still have a second rate, slow conjested corridor with even more traffic. Might as well get a levy going via fuel/ rego or whatever and funding once complete by tolls.Its not just about copying other states, It's about copying what works. We need a comprehensive and funded plan in place now.

[Aidan]

the enormous amount of property acquisition and demolition required would be socially unacceptable

simply upgrading existing South Road with grade separtated intersections would require a lot of land aquesition anyway.

Some, but not a lot.

South Road in sections thorugh Melrose Park cannot be widened any further without property aquestion.

I disagree. By narrowing the median and getting rid of the laybys it shouldn't be too difficult to fit in one extra lane. A second one would be more difficult and I expect some property acquisition would be required.

Without widening the road and leaving business along its length, you really only allow 1 free flowing lane in the centre of each side.(A lot of money to spend for only 1 free lane.) Grade separation will be required at Henley Beach /Sir Don/ Richmond

Major roads like these will require Underpasses/overpasses, but roads of intermediate importance could bridge South Road without joining it.

and goodness only knows how they are going to sort out the mess through Castle Plaza with some 5 stes of lights in the space of 1km. wihtout significant widenening or tunnelling.

Extend Edward Street over South Road and construct a new road linking it with Raglan Avenue. Possibly do the same thing near the S end of Castle Plaza, particularly if Its owners are willing to make a financial contribution. All other roads to be left turn only, and footbridges near all bus stops that don't have road bridges. Daws Road overpass similar to Emerson Overpass, including U turn lane suitable for large trucks.

If you leave the businesses along both sides of South road, well they all need access via service lanes and lights etc. (more widening)

Why would you think lights would be needed.

Flyovers/tunnels/service roads...we might as well ahve just built a freeway.

Not service roads but local traffic lanes on South Road, added as and when required. Where possible they would end in diverges (e.g. going onto the ramp to Anzac Highway) but where that's not possible they would end in merges.

Also, there is no point having sequenced traffic lights, if the traffic is at a standstill due to lack of physical capacity.

True, but that is not the situation you were complaining about.

Added to this I have noticed there are still major new developements being built right alongside South Road. This is madness as the government has already decided that this is to be the North/South route.

That depends... do the major new developments have buildings right uo to the edge of land?

Your proposal of limited upgrades adds up to billions for what would only be a second rate major coridoor.

That's a small fraction of the cost of what you're proposing.

If you think 30 years is too long to wait, well in 30 years time with your plan we will still have a second rate, slow conjested corridor with even more traffic. Might as well get a levy going via fuel/ rego or whatever and funding once complete by tolls.Its not just about copying other states, It's about copying what works. We need a comprehensive and funded plan in place now.

If that's insufficient in 30 years time a tollway can be constructed under the Morphett Road corridor where it would greatly improve airport access and connectivity generally. But considering a full freeway would save less than ten minutes over simply making it a nonstop corridor, I expect the timespan would be longer. And more railway investment is the best way to reduce traffic levels.

[[Shuz]]

I refuse to contribute to this thread anymore because Aidan trolls big-time.

[Aidan]

I refuse to contribute to this thread anymore because Aidan trolls big-time.

Since when did explaining the reasons for my opposition to huge overengineered road projects count as trolling?

[claybro]

[

Actually the traffic lights here are sequenced.

If indeed Adelaides lights are sequenced, they have done a very poor job of it.

That depends... do the major new developments have buildings right uo to the edge of land?

The community centre being constructed by West Torrens counclil opposite the brickworks is right up to the footpath.

[Aidan]

[

Actually the traffic lights here are sequenced.

If indeed Adelaides lights are sequenced, they have done a very poor job of it.

They're only sequenced off peak, as there is too much traffic for the sequencing to work well at peak times. And it works quite well on most routes, though I'm sure you can think of some exceptions (as can I).

That depends... do the major new developments have buildings right uo to the edge of land?

The community centre being constructed by West Torrens counclil opposite the brickworks is right up to the footpath.

I wasn't aware of that one and I must admit I'm rather disappointed - not because it has buildings right up to the footpath (it doesn't, and the plans clearly show provision for widening South Road but because the provision they've made is not wide enough for an underpass, which could otherwise be constructed relatively cheaply.

[jase111]

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-34.914885,1 ... d=20120706

Latest nearmap shows not a lot of room for widening

[claybro]

Aidan, As I have enjoyed this debate, I wish to point out that I dont dismiss your options out of hand. I just think they are options which should have been implemented 20-30 years ago and by now we would be looking to (as required) upgrades on this route with the benefit of hindsight. As this is the busiest route in Adelaide I think it makes sense to be funded by tolls.We are at the point already where the lack of a high speed North South through connection is costing Adelaide big time in lost productivity (my own company included). I really think, after travelling this way home tonight, the section through Edwardstown, particularly the intersection South of Castle Plaza adjacent to Mcdonalds would be impossible to make free flowing without taking out that whole side. (Southbound side). Also the small section with The Maid of Aukland and the pub on the other side is impossible to widen without taking out one whole side.Ditto with the fore mentioned intersection of West thby Road and sections in Mile End. Going by the width of the Anac highway intersection now, underpasses take an enormous amount of land as do overpasses if you look at the cross road intersection. Once we start on this path we might as well take out the whole Southbound side. Property aquestion would be far cheaper than tunneling, and I think with adequate crossovers (east /west) local traffic movements should not be such an issue. Other options aside, this is the only route the Government oposition and transport industry have identified as their preferred option due to cost, it might as well be done properly from the start.

[Aidan]

Claybro, I agree it's something thst should have been done sooner (with hindsight the opportunity should have been taken when South Road was upgraded in the early '90s, but AFAIK nobody had even thought about it at the time.) And considering the only freeway in the state at the time was Crafers to Murray Bridge, it's not surprising there were other priorities.

But most Adelaide residents don't want a freeway wrecking our inner suburbs, and considering how much the land acquisition cost was for the Anzac Highway underpass, a surface freeway may well be as expensive as tunnelling.

Take another look at South Road around the Maid of Auckland. There isn't actually any great need to widen it - it's already 19.3m wide when you include the right turn lane and the layby - and an upgrade could get rid of the latter and must get rid of the former. As for the intersection by the McDonalds, that building or one of similar size could be removed, but there's no reason to remove the whole side. Edwardstown buildings are generally set back from the road, making widening easy. Mile End doesn't have that advantage so a local traffic lane would be costlier. So while it should be grade separated ASAP it's pobably better to widen that section incrementally at a later stage.

As you say, cost is the reason why upgrading South Road is the preferred option. So it puzzles me why you seem to be arguing we're spending a lot of money and acquiring some land, so we may as well acquire an order of magnitude more land and spend several times as much!

South Road is just part of the state's transport infrastructure. We shouldn't spend so much on it that we're forced to neglect everything else.

[claybro]

But most Adelaide residents don't want a freeway wrecking our inner suburbs

Where do you get this from? Whch Adelaide residents out of the whole af Adelaide.Most people i speak to are SCREAMING out for a freeway. Most of the inner suburbs you consider will be wrecked are light industrial, except for sections of Mile End, Thebarton and Croydon Park. Many of the houses along this section have already been aquired.Most of this immediate corridor is not exactly prime suburbia. Making a corridor to freeway standard is not just about removing traffic lights it is about SPEEDING up traffic. The stated journey time savings on the Superway alone are 7 minutes over a 5km section.(probably 5 mins is more likely). A freeway standard 80-100km/h road will save 20 minutes at least from Darlington to Regency. This might not sound alot but to the transport industry this is a huge efficiency gain, even with a toll to pay. This speed will not be possible with limited grade speraration. The project should be funded by a levy with state gov and federal funding,and eventually tolls. therefore funding for other road and PT projects should not be affected.

[Aidan]

There's a lot more residential along there than just Mile End, Thebarton and Croydon Park, and even where the properties adjacent to South Road are commercial and industrial, a freeway would blight the residential areas behind that. And where are you expecting the light industry to move to? The reasons the eastern states have opted for tunnels apply just as much in Adelaide.

Adelaide was he first Australian city to abandon plans to build more freeways, and the reasons haven't changed much despite the vocal minority calling for them.

It is largely irrelevant that a freeway would save over 20 minutes over the status quo because doing nothing is no longer regarded as a serious option. The DPTI, the government and the opposition all want to make it a nonstop corridor. A freeway would save less than ten minutes more than that, and would be much noisier and more polluting, would take much longer to build, and consume vast amunt of money that would be better spent on other transport improvements.

How much is ten minutes really worth?

Some day the demand will be high enough to make an undergrund tollway commercially viable, delivering greater benefits than a South Road upgrade. Until then we should go after the low hanging fruit.