News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[[Shuz]]

Only concept drawings at this stage. Basically the idea at the moment is that the station will have two island platforms; the southwestern island platform (1&2) for the Grange/West Lakes tram tracks, and the northeastern island platform (3&4) for the Outer Harbour train tracks.

[Norman]

So they can shut the whole thing down again in another 12 months, in the hope that people get sick of the train stoppages and stop using trains, thereby saving them upgrading /extending the whole system.

LOL!! Nicely put.

I noticed Shuz said platforms 1/2 at the new Woodville Station were for Tram tracks - I thought the whole Tram/Train thing plus the West Lakes tram got scrapped?

Also is the new Wayville station officially going ahead?

1. It depends how old the concept drawing is. At this stage the project is only delayed indefinitely, so who knows what will happen with that at this stage.
2. Earthworks are in progress, but the actual design is yet to be approved later this month.

So they can shut the whole thing down again in another 12 months, in the hope that people get sick of the train stoppages and stop using trains, thereby saving them upgrading /extending the whole system.

I sense sarcasm, but that really was an unnecessary comment.

Obviously this was the most cost-effective way of delivering a replacement for the main junction of the railyard. From hereon, they can upgrade the rest of the yard without having to shut everything down.

The government is spending billions of dollars (unprecedented amounts, mind you) upgrading track, stations, railcars, ticketing systems, etc.

By the end of September this year, every single sleeper (or at least 99% of them, depending what happens in the rail yards) will have been replaced. A massive new bridge, longer than the Sydney Harbour Bridge, will cross the Onkaparinga River. 66 new railcars will be delivered over the next few years, adding dozens of extra carriages to the current rolling stock and replacing a full existing type of train. 4 new stations will be open (Seaford, Seaford Meadows, Wayville, St. Clair). Many train stations will have already received major overhauls north, south, and west of the city. Others have received substantial upgrades. You can now pay for fares using touch and go Metrocards, which can be recharged automatically without you even lifting a finger. I'm sure there is a lot more to add...

... and yet still people complain. Why? Because they have to endure a slightly longer trip for a short period? I am really getting sick of reading comments like that on here, AdelaideNow and other forums.

I lived in a European city when their tram system was metro-fied. There were heaps of massive roadworks. Tunnels built. Lines were shut, replaced with substitute buses for up to 2 years. Did people whinge? No! They got on with the job they were doing. Sometimes I think that some people should get off the internet, stop bludging at work and get some actual work done, instead of trolling sites like AdelaideNow and posting useless comments.

[kymbosa]

So they can shut the whole thing down again in another 12 months, in the hope that people get sick of the train stoppages and stop using trains, thereby saving them upgrading /extending the whole system.

LOL!! Nicely put.

I noticed Shuz said platforms 1/2 at the new Woodville Station were for Tram tracks - I thought the whole Tram/Train thing plus the West Lakes tram got scrapped?

Also is the new Wayville station officially going ahead?

1. It depends how old the concept drawing is. At this stage the project is only delayed indefinitely, so who knows what will happen with that at this stage.
2. Earthworks are in progress, but the actual design is yet to be approved later this month.

So they can shut the whole thing down again in another 12 months, in the hope that people get sick of the train stoppages and stop using trains, thereby saving them upgrading /extending the whole system.

I sense sarcasm, but that really was an unnecessary comment.

Obviously this was the most cost-effective way of delivering a replacement for the main junction of the railyard. From hereon, they can upgrade the rest of the yard without having to shut everything down.

The government is spending billions of dollars (unprecedented amounts, mind you) upgrading track, stations, railcars, ticketing systems, etc.

By the end of September this year, every single sleeper (or at least 99% of them, depending what happens in the rail yards) will have been replaced. A massive new bridge, longer than the Sydney Harbour Bridge, will cross the Onkaparinga River. 66 new railcars will be delivered over the next few years, adding dozens of extra carriages to the current rolling stock and replacing a full existing type of train. 4 new stations will be open (Seaford, Seaford Meadows, Wayville, St. Clair). Many train stations will have already received major overhauls north, south, and west of the city. Others have received substantial upgrades. You can now pay for fares using touch and go Metrocards, which can be recharged automatically without you even lifting a finger. I'm sure there is a lot more to add...

... and yet still people complain. Why? Because they have to endure a slightly longer trip for a short period? I am really getting sick of reading comments like that on here, AdelaideNow and other forums.

I lived in a European city when their tram system was metro-fied. There were heaps of massive roadworks. Tunnels built. Lines were shut, replaced with substitute buses for up to 2 years. Did people whinge? No! They got on with the job they were doing. Sometimes I think that some people should get off the internet, stop bludging at work and get some actual work done, instead of trolling sites like AdelaideNow and posting useless comments.

I 100% agree with you!! This city has a problem of being negative to anything that migh not even effect them or complain nothing gets done and when governments try to do something complain what they are doing. Just look at the work with the team line, that was the ground work for all the work going on now. We got a completely new tram line in 2005, an extended line to the ent centre, a new state of the art tram bridge over south road and and underpass on Anzac south road. All these things were complained about on Adelaidenow, fiveaa etc now they are winning awards. I am over the crap statements, in which a friend of mine said Friday as well, "it would only happen here", that's bullshit and they only say it because they are lazy to do research and travel the world to see what the real world is like.

[claybro]

[

I 100% agree with you!! This city has a problem of being negative to anything that migh not even effect them or complain nothing gets done and when governments try to do something complain what they are doing. Just look at the work with the team line, that was the ground work for all the work going on now. We got a completely new tram line in 2005, an extended line to the ent centre, a new state of the art tram bridge over south road and and underpass on Anzac south road. All these things were complained about on Adelaidenow, fiveaa etc now they are winning awards. I am over the crap statements, in which a friend of mine said Friday as well, "it would only happen here", that's bullshit and they only say it because they are lazy to do research and travel the world to see what the real world is like.

WRONG! Some of us who are not lazy, that have to travel extensively to live and work in other cties for short periods are well aware that other cities eat these kind of projects for breakfast. Not only is the project at hand done quickly and with minimum disruption, they also forward plan projects to prevent future disruption. Then we compare to the ad hock isolated approach here. Just because out of frustration some of us complain about the delivery of our relatively minor projects here, is not a critisism of the project itself, rather the manner in which they are handled and the confusing array of announcements and lack of a list of priorities and how they fit in with the other projects.

[rubberman]

Ok rev, one does not have to be a jet setter to recall that in the 1920s and 1980s the Adelaide Station was rebuilt without interrupting services.

There you go, no need to even leave SA to point out that things have been done without interrupting service. Take a bow South Aussies of the 1920s and 1980s.

Mind you, in the 1920s there were many more trains coming in and out too.

So what is unreasonable about asking why can we not do something in the year 2013 that was done with much less machinery like cranes, front end loaders etc over 80 years ago? If you think it is unreasonable to ask such questions, why not say why you think it unreasonable? I mean, for all I know there might be a good reason why we cannot do today what we did over 80 years ago.

Or you could read a book called "Rails to the Bay" by Roger Wheaton (A South Aussie), wherein he shows that Glenelg trams were faster fifty years ago than they are today...despite huge amounts of money spent. Is it so unreasonable to ask why ffs? If there is a reason, say what it is, not try to depict those of us who think that SA could be doing better and wish to encourage SA to do its best, as being negative.

The reason for pointing out what is done elsewhere is to try to ensure that South Australia learns from others' mistakes, and aims to do at least as well as other people obviously can. I want to be proud of what SA does, and the only way that can happen is if we undertake projects that are world class.

[rubberman]

And yet you have not given one single reason why we should not compare ourselves to equivalent cities elsewhere. Not one reason.

People make comparisons all the time, and for all sorts of reasons in just about every field of human activity. It is one of the things that make us improve.

I rather pity those people brought up in the era where it was thought to be wrong to make comparisons at school. They have some difficulty adjusting to real life where all sorts of people from bosses to customers at work make comparisons. Making comparisons is just real life.

Fortunately in this case, you don't have to deal with it, just ignore it if it upsets you so much. You can walk round all your life thinking that this is the best of all possible worlds, and it won't upset anyone else that you think that way.

[claybro]

Rev, I do not travel interstate for work out of some sense of self gratification. In fact I dont like it. My comment about lazy was in response to another post that assumed we spend all day reading Adelaide Now whilst sitting on our bums at work. But all this travel and spending working days in all Australian and some OS capitals has led me to make comparisons.For the record, I do not wish to move to another city but nor do I enjoy living in the city with.
1. The highest unemployment in Mainland Aus and the lowest wage and population growth.
2. The greatest migration out of state to other states.-people are voting with their feet.
3. A city where it is not possible to drive 500m without stopping at a traffic light on a major route with an average speed of 30km/h
4. A city without a viable alternative transport system to driving my car across the suburbs.
5. Crumbling secondary roads.
6. Poor regional roads and infastructure.
7. State government and opposition with no comprehensive and costed infastructure plan.
By no means are the other capitals perfect. Adelaide has so much to offer, but we are rapidly losing our ground economically, and we really need some vision and funds to get things moving, and stop making excuses or being defensive about our shortfalls.
It is interesting to note that not one single response to my original post has come up with any alternative ways of funding future infastructure.

[Heardy_101]

South Aussies are good at that.

Something doesn't work properly or is in need of an upgrade - we whinge. Someone (eg Government) goes to fix whatever it is, and we whinge about why it wasn't done earlier. While it's being fixed alternative options are offered and we whinge about how crap and substandard they are. The first thing is now fixed and we bitch about how long it took and how crap the alternative was, and despite the fact it's better, we still whinge about how it hasn't really changed.

(You'll find that the above perfectly describes the Adelaide RS shutdown and the Rail Revitalisation.)

You go to Victoria, and no one gives a shit, just as long as it all still works.

[Norman]

My comment about lazy was in response to another post that assumed we spend all day reading Adelaide Now whilst sitting on our bums at work.

That comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the general AdelaideNow commentators.

And I agree with you. We need a infrastructure plan. We need toll roads for an efficient north-south connection. What I wasn't happy with was the tone of your rant, so I guess I partook in my own rant as well. But honestly, Adelaide is not the only place where lengthy rail shutdowns happen. Maybe we are just too small a city to make it more cost-effective to use another method to do this.

Sent from my RM-821_im_mea3_306 using Board Express

[rev]

And yet you have not given one single reason why we should not compare ourselves to equivalent cities elsewhere. Not one reason.

People make comparisons all the time, and for all sorts of reasons in just about every field of human activity. It is one of the things that make us improve.

I rather pity those people brought up in the era where it was thought to be wrong to make comparisons at school. They have some difficulty adjusting to real life where all sorts of people from bosses to customers at work make comparisons. Making comparisons is just real life.

Fortunately in this case, you don't have to deal with it, just ignore it if it upsets you so much. You can walk round all your life thinking that this is the best of all possible worlds, and it won't upset anyone else that you think that way.

It's not up to me to give a reason why we shouldn't, because city comparisons are just plain dumb.
It is you guys who keep comparing how things are done in Adelaide to how things are done in other cities. So the burden falls upon you guys who are making those comparisons, to give reasons why Adelaide should emulate those cities.

Personally, I think as a city and as a state we should not aim to be as good, in any way shape or form, as other cities, but be the best that Adelaide and South Australia can be.
This nonsense about world class this and that, and comparing to other cities, needs to be forgotten, and this city and state need to strive to be the best that is possible.

[Nathan]

So you're saying we shouldn't learn from what other cities do, and instead completely ignore them? Somehow I don't think living in an isolated bubble will help us be the best we can be.

[rev]

No, that's not what I said either.

Some are saying other cities did it differently or whatever, and that we should have done it like they did basically.
What I'm saying is, who cares? Why do we have to emulate what others have done? Why can't we do things as best as can be done here, in Adelaide, South Australia, and not worry about how things are done in some other city?
How do you know that the way things are done elsewhere, is the best that can be done here? What if we can do better here? Why shouldn't this city and state be aiming to do things as best as possible? Why must it always be this city did it this way so we should have and so on?
Why limit our selves to only what is good and doable in other places? Why not go beyond that? Why do people think we need to be as good as Melbourne for example? Why cant we be better?

Remember, SA used to lead the way in some areas. SA didn't wait and see what Victoria or NSW would do, or some other place in some other country, it went ahead and did it.
Although those things were more socio-economic related. But I don't see why the same cant be applied to economic development and developments in general.

[jk1237]

Rev, I do not travel interstate for work out of some sense of self gratification. In fact I dont like it. My comment about lazy was in response to another post that assumed we spend all day reading Adelaide Now whilst sitting on our bums at work. But all this travel and spending working days in all Australian and some OS capitals has led me to make comparisons.For the record, I do not wish to move to another city but nor do I enjoy living in the city with.
1. The highest unemployment in Mainland Aus and the lowest wage and population growth.
2. The greatest migration out of state to other states.-people are voting with their feet.
3. A city where it is not possible to drive 500m without stopping at a traffic light on a major route with an average speed of 30km/h
4. A city without a viable alternative transport system to driving my car across the suburbs.
5. Crumbling secondary roads.
6. Poor regional roads and infastructure.
7. State government and opposition with no comprehensive and costed infastructure plan.
By no means are the other capitals perfect. Adelaide has so much to offer, but we are rapidly losing our ground economically, and we really need some vision and funds to get things moving, and stop making excuses or being defensive about our shortfalls.
It is interesting to note that not one single response to my original post has come up with any alternative ways of funding future infastructure.

yeah whatever, our state has had to put up with quite a lot of economic restructuring for past 3 decades, with a shift away from reliance on manufacturing. We have tried quite hard to develop new industries to sustain the employment lost from manufacturing, and guess what, it is working. Similar cities in the US and Europe havent been as successful in their shift which is why they have lost people in absolute numbers as well as falling GDP, huge job losses and negative pop growth. Similar cities also lack the financial means to improve infrastructure and we aint actually doing so bad. Even though we maybe deemed a "rustbucket" we have never had negative pop growth and our u/e rate has never been that far from the national average. I doubt if you can say that for Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo or Cincinati and another halfdozen US cities

[jk1237]

Or you could read a book called "Rails to the Bay" by Roger Wheaton (A South Aussie), wherein he shows that Glenelg trams were faster fifty years ago than they are today...despite huge amounts of money spent. Is it so unreasonable to ask why ffs?

well thats an easy one, answer is the terrible sequence of traffic lights in the city that gives trams the last priority and cause walking to almost be faster than a city tram

[rubberman]

(snip)

well thats an easy one, answer is the terrible sequence of traffic lights in the city that gives trams the last priority and cause walking to almost be faster than a city tram

That is the question I am asking 'why?' to.

Why is the sequence of lights so terrible?
Why did we pay almost twice as much for the Citadis?
Why do we have signals along the line where no traditional tramway would have had them?
Why is the schedule so slack that the trams go slower along the line than they potentially could?
Why is the schedule so slack that are there some stops where they wait and wait and wait for no apparent reason?

Rev, the point of being able to point out what is going on overseas or interstate, or even what we ourselves did in the past, is that it enables us to challenge management to justify their actions. Too often management asks us to accept whatever they dish up. Often they use the excuse that they know better than us, and that the only way that work can be done on the station is the way they say. By using examples of where people elsewhere have done something apparently better, management cannot hide behind the excuse of "It can't be done."

When you deny the ability to use overseas or interstate comparisons for work done here, you give management a free pass to avoid explaining their actions. Maybe they have a good reason. Fair enough, then let us in on it. We have a right to know that our tax money is being spent wisely.