#Official Defence Thread

[rev]

See you at tomorrow's launch Rev

Haha what time is it? I may go down for a gander.

[ghs]

TKMS would be the best option for SA as it looks like they would build the subs in Adelaide.

Not sure why the government hasn't sold off ASC, surely it would help to pay off the nation's debt.

[Goodsy]

TKMS would be the best option for SA as it looks like they would build the subs in Adelaide.

Not sure why the government hasn't sold off ASC, surely it would help to pay off the nation's debt.

I wonder if they'd be able to use the shipyard to build ships for other countries as well

[ghs]

Unlikely that there would be shipbuilding for other countries here in Adelaide.

If another country decided to build ships here then that country would have the same problem - offshoring
thousands of jobs overseas.

[rev]

For ASC to build ships and submarines for other countries they first need to have designs of their own.
They do not. The Collins class was based on a Swedish design, and since retrofitting it heavily features American systems.
The Hobart class destroyers are a Spanish design with many foreign systems, but also Australian.

The truth is there's only a handful of major weapons manufacturers. On most western ships you'll find the same, or similar, 'guns' at the front, from the same manufacturer. You'll also find the same CIWS on many western ships. You'll also find many of the same anti-ship/submarine systems on them as well. Heck even the engines/propulsion systems.

ASC needs to design a ship, then it needs agreements with the foreign companies that make these things and their government export agencies and arms control agencies.
Those foreign governments and their arms control agencies can block the sale if they have an arms embargo on the country that wants to buy the ship designed and built by ASC, or for whatever political reasons.

Of course not that we've built the first Hobart class, if say a western country decides they want to buy the same ships with some differences, Navantia(the Spanish company) and ASC, and that other country, might decide to build part or one or more of the ships here in Adelaide.

The other issue with TKMS is that their submarines are not designed or suited to Australia's requirements and the conditions in the waters they'll be operating in our region.
For starters they don't even have the range we require.


The best option has been and will always be in house design and construction.

[Waewick]

You've got to laugh at the irony of Wetherill proud day crap.

Over budget, behind time and funded by the Feds.

Pretty much sums up SA.

[rev]

You've got to laugh at the irony of Wetherill proud day crap.

Over budget, behind time and funded by the Feds.

Pretty much sums up SA.

Piss poor pissant attempt at having a dig at the state.

Over budget, behind schedule...welcome to the world of defence procurements.

[Waewick]

You've got to laugh at the irony of Wetherill proud day crap.

Over budget, behind time and funded by the Feds.

Pretty much sums up SA.

Piss poor pissant attempt at having a dig at the state.

Over budget, behind schedule...welcome to the world of defence procurements.

To be honest more a dig a Weatherill.

[Pistol]

You've got to laugh at the irony of Wetherill proud day crap.

Over budget, behind time and funded by the Feds.

Pretty much sums up SA.

Piss poor pissant attempt at having a dig at the state.

Over budget, behind schedule...welcome to the world of defence procurements.

Rev, please do your homework on defence procurement before you generalise...

[rev]

You've got to laugh at the irony of Wetherill proud day crap.

Over budget, behind time and funded by the Feds.

Pretty much sums up SA.

Piss poor pissant attempt at having a dig at the state.

Over budget, behind schedule...welcome to the world of defence procurements.

Rev, please do your homework on defence procurement before you generalise...

Projects running behind schedule, or costing more, is nothing new, nor is it anything surprising.
The first Hobart was the first of it's kind, the first of it's type built by the ASC workforce. It is not that uncommon for the first of type to be behind schedule and/or over budget. The hope is that after the first of type, that lessons are learned, and changes adopted on the rest of the type builds. Teething problems.

Example..Greece bought 4 Type214 submarines from the same German company wanting to buy ASC now. The first was built in Germany, the next 3 in Greece.
The first Type214 built for Greece was the first Type214 ever built, ie first of it's type. And the experienced German firm and workforce still didn't get it right. There were problems with the build. The lessons learned from that, were applied to the next 3 submarines built in Greece, and those 3 submarines did not have the problems that the first one had. This exmaple makes a mockery of claims that selling to TKMS would be beneficial, just because ASC has had delays and cost blow outs.
They were behind schedule on delivering them.

The Leopard2A6HEl tanks Greece bought from Germany's KMW also had faults, that were fixed eventually.

Another example using Greece, but relevant to Australia. The C27J Spartan transport aircraft. Greece bought them several years ago, and some of the aircraft delivered had faults with the cockpits. Alenia(the Italian company that built them) acknowledged the faults and fixed them.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/ ... d-projects
Several projets combined will cost an extra 6 billion pounds, and be delayed by up to 26 years in total.

The F35 Joint Strike Fighter, which Australia is buying, not only massive cost blow outs, but massive delays as well. This is the first of it's type, and a first of it's kind with so many partner nations building parts for it.

A new European transport plane, the A400M, one crashed recently during test flights in Spain. There's major problems with it, it will be delayed further and cost more.

And how can we forget the Collins class submarines? Eventually though, the problems were fixed, and we now have one of the best submarines of it's kind.

There were also delays in the TIger helicopters we bought for the Army.

The point is, that just because there's been delays and problems and cost blow outs with defence procurement in other countries, those countries governments didn't use it as an excuse to shut down an entire industry and buy foreign weapons.
It isn't like assembling a Lego kit. It is a complex process that takes a considerable amount of time to complete just the manufacturing process. They then have to test/trial it and ensure it operates and behaves as it should in different conditions and environments that it will be operated in during it's time in service.

The problem isn't ASC. The problem is the government of the day is using ASC to play political games, because they've done an under the table deal with Japan. And now they have to sell it to the Australian public without directly telling us what they've done.

They aren't putting the national interest first, so they should be voted out at the next election. The unfortunate thing is that we have even more incompetent bufoons on the side, with people like Bill Shorten.

[Hooligan]

[Pistol]

Actually, CDG make the decisions on what capability to procure.
DMO are the procurement and sustainment agents that are lumped with this decision.

DMO is history come 30 June to be replaced with (shock, horror) CASG!!
What a change!!!

[rev]

Future frigates could be built here and in Melbourne..worth $20 billion.

Of course the government is trying to trick South Australians...AGAIN..because they've slipped to 19% in the ratings polls in South Australia and a number of senior Liberals are on track to lose their seats at the next election.

Of course the tender process wont be finished and contracts awarded for at least five years anyway.
So promises mean nothing and are just a cheap and easy election trick.

[rev]

So the government held a cabinet session in Adelaide today. Announcing some ship building projects, mostly for Adelaide, but also in Melbourne and probably other shipyards.

So new frigates, corvettes and OPV(ocean patrol vessels).

However, in the mean time, there will still be lay offs at ASC. The work force will decline from around 2,500 to about the 1,000 mark.
Around 2020 things will bump up again(if those skilled workers decide to stick around twiddling their thumbs waiting for 5 years with no income). This is being sold as a benefit to South Australia for some reason by the federal government.

This is just a "softening us up" approach before they come clean on the submarines deal, with $50 billion worth of work being sent overseas, and not just any work, but work on one of the most strategically important assets this country has and will have for it's national defence/deterence.

Oh let's not forget they came in and threw "2 million dollars" at a few small businesses. Wowsers. 2 million dollars in the midst of a job crisis which could hit 10% unemployment levels.

Ah, and I forgot, they are ramping up NBN rollout, with about 400 jobs being created soon.

Ah yeh, Tony Abbot has saved South Australia, he will turn us into a power house just like he "hopes"..thousands of jobs gone..but a couple hundred are created, while over 1,000 more will be lost..but those 1,500+ shipbuilding workers will for some reason sit idle at home, frozen like Han Solo in Star Wars waiting to be defrosted.

You'd think a government which is facing anihilation in many key seats across the state, with an election coming soon, would actually come with something more substantial. But what this shows is how much contempt and disregard the federal Liberals have for this state and it's people.

[Goodsy]

So the government held a cabinet session in Adelaide today. Announcing some ship building projects, mostly for Adelaide, but also in Melbourne and probably other shipyards.

So new frigates, corvettes and OPV(ocean patrol vessels).

However, in the mean time, there will still be lay offs at ASC. The work force will decline from around 2,500 to about the 1,000 mark.
Around 2020 things will bump up again(if those skilled workers decide to stick around twiddling their thumbs waiting for 5 years with no income). This is being sold as a benefit to South Australia for some reason by the federal government.

This is just a "softening us up" approach before they come clean on the submarines deal, with $50 billion worth of work being sent overseas, and not just any work, but work on one of the most strategically important assets this country has and will have for it's national defence/deterence.

Oh let's not forget they came in and threw "2 million dollars" at a few small businesses. Wowsers. 2 million dollars in the midst of a job crisis which could hit 10% unemployment levels.

Ah, and I forgot, they are ramping up NBN rollout, with about 400 jobs being created soon.

Ah yeh, Tony Abbot has saved South Australia, he will turn us into a power house just like he "hopes"..thousands of jobs gone..but a couple hundred are created, while over 1,000 more will be lost..but those 1,500+ shipbuilding workers will for some reason sit idle at home, frozen like Han Solo in Star Wars waiting to be defrosted.

You'd think a government which is facing anihilation in many key seats across the state, with an election coming soon, would actually come with something more substantial. But what this shows is how much contempt and disregard the federal Liberals have for this state and it's people.

Not too mention the ship building jobs are entirely contingent on the Liberals winning the next election