News & Discussion: Regional Transport

[Maximus]

Heardy, I totally support what you're doing here. However, again from a government perspective, a few things to note:

Numbered questions are good (keeps things simple and easily 'respondable'), but poor spelling/punctuation and personal insults are bad. You don't want to give them any 'easy' reason to ignore you. Okay, so you're probably still going to be branded as an 'agitator' or similar for all of these letters you're writing, but if your letters are well-written and respectful, then you have a better chance of getting noticed and receiving a response. I'd suggest having someone proof-read the letters before you send them and also try to leave out any language that could be perceived as aggressive/insulting -- e.g. "total arrogance that is reminiscent of you (sic) predecessors".

You're always more likely to receive a response from the Opposition, because (a) they're keen to impress, and (b) they have more time on their hands. Also, don't necessarily believe that Minister McFetridge responded to you "personally". He may have signed the letter, but it's most likely that a staffer wrote it and he may have only skim-read it before signing.

Please take this as constructive criticism, rather than just criticism. You're doing a good job and I just want to help give you the best chance of success.

[claybro]

Many totally support this, but when even the rail enthusiasts in this state have lost the will to battle for rail..well it's just as easy for the Gov to ignore the wishes of the lazy voting public. At a minimum passenger services to Whyalla, Mt Gambier and Broken Hill should be re-instated with modern faster trains. Lines to grain areas that have recently operated should also be upgraded for freight use to get the trucks off roads.

[Heardy_101]

Many totally support this, but when even the rail enthusiasts in this state have lost the will to battle for rail..well it's just as easy for the Gov to ignore the wishes of the lazy voting public. At a minimum passenger services to Whyalla, Mt Gambier and Broken Hill should be re-instated with modern faster trains. Lines to grain areas that have recently operated should also be upgraded for freight use to get the trucks off roads.

but when even the rail enthusiasts in this state have lost the will to battle for rail

You can say that again. I have copped a lot of flack, abuse, insults and even threats on Rail forums because of this. Makes you wonder, because they whinge and whine about it then as soon as someone gets up out of their armchair to try and do something about they get shot. And on these forums its the same 3-4 people who do it. Every time.

Lines to grain areas that have recently operated should also be upgraded for freight use to get the trucks off roads.

"Oh but would somebody please think of the truckies???!!"

[train driver]

I have been following this topic for some time now on this forum, it is virtually an exact copy of what is posted on other forums that specialise in rail, the point that needs to be highlighted is, when bloggers have responded with constructive and most importantly correct and factual responses the author and a few others in the consortium group of enthusiast seem to not want to take those responses on board.

It is disappointing to read so much incorrect information about the sale of the Australian National (AN) regional rail freight network in 1997 by the then Federal Liberal Government and the demise of country passenger rail services, in some cases, regional passenger and freight services along with line closures occurred prior to the South Australian Railways being sold in 1978. How you can blamed this on the current state Labor government, when the fact is that it was the previous State Liberal Government that signed of on the AN sale.

The matters being regurgitated now are the same matters that were raised as far back as 1997 when the liberals were in government and I'm advise that the Liberal shadow minister is aware of that, and his response is nothing more that blame and shame Labor for spending all the money when he knows, that the previous Liberal government that he was part of, wrote the same responses to constituents questions as apparently, Conlon & Fox are doing today, because they are the only true and correct answers that can be given to the same questions. He did not say in his response when we get the money we will rebuild it did he.

Some statements made in these blogs I believe are libelous and may get some unwanted attention from a former Minister after Monday's cabinet reshuffle and I also believe the comments related to a Mr Hall have been taken out of context and are extremely miss-leading and that could also receive attention.

If this topic continues unchallenged, I will attempt to dissect it over the coming weeks piece by piece and respond to it factually.

[claybro]

Does it really matter who did what and when back in the day? Fact is, neither party give a rats about regional rail, and a once extensive system is all but gone. To add insult to injury, whoever took the money from the sale back in the day,and subsequent adimistrations did not put any of it into the regional roads that now have to cope with the ever increasing freight and private vehicles. A valuable asset built up over many years has been left to rot to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.Whoever is in power now needs some sort of accountability as they are the custodians of our assets. Discussion about matter of liable and loose use of the facts of the time distract from the fact that we have the worst rail system of mainland Australia, much to our economic loss and someone has to stop the rot. What I see here is someone crying out to save what is left of our once viable rail network... there should be more of it, and to get into discussion re slander and liable etc is being a bit prescious.

[Heardy_101]

It is disappointing to read so much incorrect information about the sale of the Australian National (AN) regional rail freight network in 1997 by the then Federal Liberal Government and the demise of country passenger rail services, in some cases, regional passenger and freight services along with line closures occurred prior to the South Australian Railways being sold in 1978. How you can blamed this on the current state Labor government, when the fact is that it was the previous State Liberal Government that signed of on the AN sale.

What part is incorrect?

First of all, this is not about the sale of AN in 1997. I am well aware that quite a few services, including the Barossa and Burra services, ceased to run prior to the sale of the SAR in 1975.

I am not blaming this on the current Labor Government. This has nothing to do with the sale of AN - I suggest you re-read what is being said here.

Some statements made in these blogs I believe are libelous and may get some unwanted attention from a former Minister after Monday's cabinet reshuffle and I also believe the comments related to a Mr Hall have been taken out of context and are extremely miss-leading and that could also receive attention.

If this topic continues unchallenged, I will attempt to dissect it over the coming weeks piece by piece and respond to it factually.

Libelous, how so?

Unwanted attention in what way?

You can ask Mr Hall yourself - he is a passionate Railway man and I doubt he would lie about what happened during his tenure at AN.

This topic is not being unchallenged, and I assure you that if I did not believe something to be true (eg if it was intentionally misleading or false), then I would not post it.

I have been following this topic for some time now on this forum, it is virtually an exact copy of what is posted on other forums that specialise in rail

http://allozrail.freeforums.org/campaig ... a7771bcadd

http://www.railsa.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5565

http://www.wheelsonsteel.com.au/showthr ... 0#pid98350

http://www.sensational-adelaide.com/for ... 35#p108905

Yes, they are the same. The initial posts I made were the same, but the subsequent responses are not as everyone has responded differently. Why does that matter?

the point that needs to be highlighted is, when bloggers have responded with constructive and most importantly correct and factual responses

the point that needs to be highlighted is, when bloggers have responded with constructive and most importantly correct and factual responses

Constructive? No-one on the Rail forums has ever been constructive. A few have been, but the rest had nothing better to say but personal attacks, abuse and negativity. Again, if I did not believe something to be real, or factual, then I would not post it.

the author and a few others in the consortium group of enthusiast seem to not want to take those responses on board.

I will accept criticism to a degree depending on what it is, but to translate that into abuse and personal attacks, which I encountered on Railpage, is just beyond belief. Why would I take on board such insults and attacks?

I highlight the mention of the "Consortium" group for the following reason: This new campaign, as I have mentioned previously (and will repeat below), is completely separate from the Consortium. I am not distancing myself from it by any means (as I have no reason to) but rather, the Campaign will be a more open and more public.

"...While the "Consortium" projects are still happening, pending Government approval, the aim will be to create public awareness and support for better public transport in South Australia..."

Before having goes at someone because you think they are lying or posting misleading information, at least have some basis first.

[Heardy_101]

Does it really matter who did what and when back in the day? Fact is, neither party give a rats about regional rail, and a once extensive system is all but gone. To add insult to injury, whoever took the money from the sale back in the day,and subsequent adimistrations did not put any of it into the regional roads that now have to cope with the ever increasing freight and private vehicles. A valuable asset built up over many years has been left to rot to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.Whoever is in power now needs some sort of accountability as they are the custodians of our assets. Discussion about matter of liable and loose use of the facts of the time distract from the fact that we have the worst rail system of mainland Australia, much to our economic loss and someone has to stop the rot. What I see here is someone crying out to save what is left of our once viable rail network... there should be more of it, and to get into discussion re slander and liable etc is being a bit prescious.

Exactly. Since the sale of both the SAR in the 70s and AN in the 90s, SA has been Adelaide-centric and up until the last decade, this has been unchallenged. The South Australian Government is "Adelaide this, Adelaide that" with absolutely no mention of regional SA whatsoever, whether it be Transport, Infrastructure, Roads, People, Towns, you name it. The Governments ignorance of people living past the Heysen Tunnels and Gepps Cross is not limited to Transport but everything. Anyone who thinks this is a lie obviously has either no idea or has never lived in the country.

Regardless of which Party sold what and which Party said this and which Party built that, at the end of the day the current Government is still responsible for either cleaning up the mess of previous Governments, or continuing whatever was started. The current Government is still responsible for the various Transport networks, infrastructure, you name it, just as their predecessors were.

[train driver]

Does it really matter who did what and when back in the day? Fact is, neither party give a rats about regional rail, and a once extensive system is all but gone. To add insult to injury, whoever took the money from the sale back in the day,and subsequent adimistrations did not put any of it into the regional roads that now have to cope with the ever increasing freight and private vehicles. A valuable asset built up over many years has been left to rot to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.Whoever is in power now needs some sort of accountability as they are the custodians of our assets. Discussion about matter of liable and loose use of the facts of the time distract from the fact that we have the worst rail system of mainland Australia, much to our economic loss and someone has to stop the rot. What I see here is someone crying out to save what is left of our once viable rail network... there should be more of it, and to get into discussion re slander and liable etc is being a bit prescious.

I thought that NSW and Queensland would have the worst regional rail network, and I don't include the coal lines in that.

WA is heading the same the rest on the Australian regional rail network is heading as well.

[train driver]

I am suggesting that in the enthusiasm of your cause there needs to be a more cautious and professional way that points are made and how people are allegedly quoted, for example you quote a Mr Hall, -- from my discussions with him frequently over the past twenty years, I know the comment and in what context it was made, and it had nothing to do with those services that had already been terminated. This puts and entirely different slant on it to what has been blogged.

I also want to point out that I'm no "johnny come lately" to keeping a viable rail network in SA, I have committed virtually all my working life to the cause and have seen the unrealistic demands and suggestions made over that time. Your line off approach is not dissimilar to those who unsuccessfully tried before you, in fact some comments are an exact quote.

Most of the regional lines are still there since the AN sale, they are not being used by the grain company's you mention previously in your blogs, and they will not be used in the future by them either so, what is left to haul on these lines -- fresh air.

You raised passenger services, they died out because the car was quicker, and the car left their house when they wanted it too.

I look forward to your constructive professional, courteous and thought through future comments.

[claybro]

I dont doubt your knowledge in these areas "train driver". But to suggest regional rail in NSW/QLD and WA is in decline to the point of SA is just plain wrong. WA have recently upgraded services by fast train to Kalgoorlie. Also has extended passenger rail south of Perth (not a dis-similar position as our Barossa in relation to the CBD).NSW VIC and QLD also have regional fast trains. Grain not being transported by rail is causing massive deterioration of our roads due to the extra heavy vehicls using roads not designed for this purpose. We either put more money into the rail and get some trucks and buses off the roads, or spend it on massive road imrovements. At this point neither is happening. As for your comments re cars being quicker than passenger trains is a bit misleading. Compared to years ago when regional trains where old deisel cars running on even older tracks probably with top speeds of 80 km/h for most of the trip, well yes cars/buses were quicker. With modern upgraded tracks and faster trains this is no longer the case as is evident where fast regional trains are provided.

[train driver]

I dont doubt your knowledge in these areas "train driver". But to suggest regional rail in NSW/QLD and WA is in decline to the point of SA is just plain wrong. WA have recently upgraded services by fast train to Kalgoorlie. Also has extended passenger rail south of Perth (not a dis-similar position as our Barossa in relation to the CBD).NSW VIC and QLD also have regional fast trains. Grain not being transported by rail is causing massive deterioration of our roads due to the extra heavy vehicls using roads not designed for this purpose. We either put more money into the rail and get some trucks and buses off the roads, or spend it on massive road imrovements. At this point neither is happening. As for your comments re cars being quicker than passenger trains is a bit misleading. Compared to years ago when regional trains where old deisel cars running on even older tracks probably with top speeds of 80 km/h for most of the trip, well yes cars/buses were quicker. With modern upgraded tracks and faster trains this is no longer the case as is evident where fast regional trains are provided.

Claybro, I'm no expert on WA, but have been watching it, the regional grain lines are/were being closed down by the current WA Government and the farmers are up in arms about the conditions of the roads, I just recently traveled extensively through some of those areas and the roads were extremely bad compared to ours.

On the passenger train side of things over there, yes they have been expanding there suburban electric network as we are here, the two regional lines which you mention, Kalgoorlie has a population of in excess of 36,000 just in the city, let alone the populations along the line, Bundbury has around the same and has good populations along the line as well.

Here in SA, Burra has about 1,350 and not to many along the line, Nuriootpa has about 5,000, and even Gawler only has around 16,000, these big population differences is what kills us when we try to get regional passengers to places like these.

To get the Burra line to a state that would allow for fast passenger train service i would guess be around $100m, Nuriootpa may be $20m, Mount Gambier $100m, and that is with out purchasing the train sets, and restoring or building new DDA compliant platforms. Unfortunately it's not going to stack up.

I thought we had a chance when I read about the Penola Pulp Mill starting up and putting a base load of around 700,000 tons on the line, but that fell over to.

[claybro]

I do get that nationally there is a move from grain by rail to grain by road. I guess what most people dont get is that we are allowing expensive rail infastructure built over many years to slowly rot, whilst freight and passengers are moved onto roads. Trucks and buses do not pay directly for use of the roads, however a train operator has to pay to use the tracks. No wonder the sums dont add up. Meanwhile the govt. took the money from the sale of various lines and so we now have unusable rail infastructure AND collapsing roads. There are some serious questions to answer here, but unfortunately, whenever the questions get asked, the debate gets bogged down in who did what, and how best to lobby politicians without offending anyone and how to get politicians to read letters etc etc.
Note we are not expanding train services even in metro Adelaide, we are electrifying EXISTING lines, and I would bet that should the Libs win the next election, even this will come to a halt.
As for the comparison with Perth/Kal. Well that line has had a decent high speed train since the 70's.At the time Perth had a population of 800000 and Kalgoorlie about 35000. That line is 700 odd km. Now compare current Adelaide pop. 1200000 and Mt Gambier or Whyalla..pop 25000 each but over a distance of only 400km. Also Perth to Kal..there is nothing much in between for the last few hundred kms. If WA could do it 30 years ago, with a similar population profile and continue to improve services, there is absolutely no reason we should not expect the same, particularly as the SE line can connect to Western Vic. for freight and passenger services.

[train driver]

I do get that nationally there is a move from grain by rail to grain by road. I guess what most people dont get is that we are allowing expensive rail infastructure built over many years to slowly rot, whilst freight and passengers are moved onto roads. Trucks and buses do not pay directly for use of the roads, however a train operator has to pay to use the tracks. No wonder the sums dont add up. Meanwhile the govt. took the money from the sale of various lines and so we now have unusable rail infastructure AND collapsing roads. There are some serious questions to answer here, but unfortunately, whenever the questions get asked, the debate gets bogged down in who did what, and how best to lobby politicians without offending anyone and how to get politicians to read letters etc etc.
Note we are not expanding train services even in metro Adelaide, we are electrifying EXISTING lines, and I would bet that should the Libs win the next election, even this will come to a halt.
As for the comparison with Perth/Kal. Well that line has had a decent high speed train since the 70's.At the time Perth had a population of 800000 and Kalgoorlie about 35000. That line is 700 odd km. Now compare current Adelaide pop. 1200000 and Mt Gambier or Whyalla..pop 25000 each but over a distance of only 400km. Also Perth to Kal..there is nothing much in between for the last few hundred kms. If WA could do it 30 years ago, with a similar population profile and continue to improve services, there is absolutely no reason we should not expect the same, particularly as the SE line can connect to Western Vic. for freight and passenger services.

I agree whole heartily trucks don't pay there way and probably never will, but I believe that they should be paying more, a lot more. The $90/100m the Libs got when they sold AN, even then would not have gone far.

As I said, SA can't get the SE line open and the Vics can't get the track across to Heywood open either, the only reason the line is still open to Port Land is because the ARTC has taken over the line from Maroona to Portland.

It's more economically beneficial to the SA tax payer to throw in $10m into regional country bus concessions than it is to subsides regional train services whether they be freight or passenger services, that's why the State sold the SAR to the Feds and they sold AN to private enterprise. Each State has done similar and each States regional lines are going the same way unfortunately.

[Heardy_101]

I am suggesting that in the enthusiasm of your cause there needs to be a more cautious and professional way that points are made and how people are allegedly quoted, for example you quote a Mr Hall, -- from my discussions with him frequently over the past twenty years, I know the comment and in what context it was made, and it had nothing to do with those services that had already been terminated. This puts and entirely different slant on it to what has been blogged.

I also want to point out that I'm no "johnny come lately" to keeping a viable rail network in SA, I have committed virtually all my working life to the cause and have seen the unrealistic demands and suggestions made over that time. Your line off approach is not dissimilar to those who unsuccessfully tried before you, in fact some comments are an exact quote.

Most of the regional lines are still there since the AN sale, they are not being used by the grain company's you mention previously in your blogs, and they will not be used in the future by them either so, what is left to haul on these lines -- fresh air.

You raised passenger services, they died out because the car was quicker, and the car left their house when they wanted it too.

I look forward to your constructive professional, courteous and thought through future comments.

When you put it that way, it is easier to understand where you are coming from. I meant no discontent with my previous reply to your original post, so excuse me if it did sound like there was.

Each State has done similar and each States regional lines are going the same way unfortunately.

Yes and no.

When you look at Victoria, their (privately operated) lines are in far better nick than what even some of the ARTC lines here in SA are. With the Fast Rail upgrades in the last 10 years or so, plus with the Vic Government being cashed up 9 times out of 10, they are able to continually upgrade their Transport network to a very high standard. Not only that, but as they have the ability to plan beyond elections, they are able to successfully gain more Federal funding than what even WA has received over the years for their Transport networks. SA Governments at the moment don't have the ability to plan beyond a 4 year period (eg to the next election). Victoria have been doing their planning (especially Transport) in 10, 15 year timeframes, and even when they change Governments (eg from ALP to Libs, and vice versa etc) they still keep this in mind. Claybro mentioned that the SA Libs will can the Adelaide Electrification altogether and unfortunately even I can see this happening. I have said it before, as much as I loathe Labor I give the SA ALP full credit for trying to bring SA's Metro lines to a better standard as well as getting new Electric Railcars (been a long time coming!).

[train driver]

Mitch, every thing is Cool Bananas:)

I have been watching the Vics and there fast train projects, they are lucky because it's a small State and they have some very dense populate country towns and that helps, especially if they are marginal seat:)

SA does plan ahead more that a four year term now, I've just finish reading the 30 year plan that was released last year, although there is no regional rail issue in it there is mention of Concordia, Roseworthy and Aldinga extensions, and that is better than nothing.

The regional rail network will survive or will be rebuilt if there is significant demand for that corridor by the mining company's, i just read recently that the Snowtown Wallaroo line or part of it may/could be used to transport the minerals from the Yunta/Maldorky area, and I hope that happens, it would have to be rebuilt because the rail is not heavier enough, but the main thing is the corridor is there and protected for future use.

One success for regional rail that people never seem to mention is the Balco intermodal on the old broad gauge corridor at Bowman's that is a little gem.