News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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PeFe
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2011 Post by PeFe » Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:32 am

You can only compare Adelaide to cities in the "new world" ie North America, Australia or New Zealand.

Cities in Asia and Europe have much much higher densities and therefore public transport is prioritised over cars, whilst in Adelaide it is the other way round.

The survey compared Bordeaux in France (exact same population to Adelaide, and 5th most important city in the country) however Bordeaux is much much smaller, you only need to travel 7 kms from the centre of Bordeaux to reach the countryside. I have been there and seen this with my own eyes.

The survey used Portland as the "American example"....totally inappropriate....Portland actually wants to have good public transport/bike lanes etc making them atypical of the American urban experience.

Here are some other examples of public transport in the USA using cities with populations similar to Adelaide.

1)Oklahoma City, pop 1.4 million, exactly the same as Adelaide, buses and a small cbd tram, only 7 bus routes travel after 7pm and 2 after 10pm

2) New Orleans, pop 1.3 million, legacy streetcar system (half transport system, half theme park ride) and buses

3) Jacksonville, pop 1.7 million, all buses no trams or trains

4) Richmond, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

5) Louisville, pop 1.4 million, all buses no trams or trains

6) Memphis, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

7) Nashville, pop 2 million, buses, one commuter rail line ( 3 trains in the am, 3 trains in the pm)

8) Orlando, pop 2.6 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)

9) Tampa, pop 3 million, buses, one heritage streetcar (tram)

10) Columbus, 2 million, all buses, no trams or trains

11) Kansas City, pop 2.2 million, buses, small cbd tram, one BRT corridor

12) San Antonio, pop 2.6 million, all buses, no trams or trains

13) Austin, pop 2.2 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2012 Post by SBD » Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:19 pm

PeFe wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:32 am
You can only compare Adelaide to cities in the "new world" ie North America, Australia or New Zealand.

Cities in Asia and Europe have much much higher densities and therefore public transport is prioritised over cars, whilst in Adelaide it is the other way round.

The survey compared Bordeaux in France (exact same population to Adelaide, and 5th most important city in the country) however Bordeaux is much much smaller, you only need to travel 7 kms from the centre of Bordeaux to reach the countryside. I have been there and seen this with my own eyes.

The survey used Portland as the "American example"....totally inappropriate....Portland actually wants to have good public transport/bike lanes etc making them atypical of the American urban experience.

Here are some other examples of public transport in the USA using cities with populations similar to Adelaide.

1)Oklahoma City, pop 1.4 million, exactly the same as Adelaide, buses and a small cbd tram, only 7 bus routes travel after 7pm and 2 after 10pm

2) New Orleans, pop 1.3 million, legacy streetcar system (half transport system, half theme park ride) and buses

3) Jacksonville, pop 1.7 million, all buses no trams or trains

4) Richmond, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

5) Louisville, pop 1.4 million, all buses no trams or trains

6) Memphis, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

7) Nashville, pop 2 million, buses, one commuter rail line ( 3 trains in the am, 3 trains in the pm)

8) Orlando, pop 2.6 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)

9) Tampa, pop 3 million, buses, one heritage streetcar (tram)

10) Columbus, 2 million, all buses, no trams or trains

11) Kansas City, pop 2.2 million, buses, small cbd tram, one BRT corridor

12) San Antonio, pop 2.6 million, all buses, no trams or trains

13) Austin, pop 2.2 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)
Is your point "It could be worse"?
How easy is it in those cities to travel by public transport between two suburban points 90 degrees from the CBD? For example Golden Grove to Osborne? Google currently says that's 31 minutes by car, 1:34 by public transport and 1:23 by bike. Compared to public transport, the cyclist almost has time to shower and change!

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2013 Post by PeFe » Thu Aug 17, 2023 4:07 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 1:19 pm
PeFe wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2023 11:32 am
You can only compare Adelaide to cities in the "new world" ie North America, Australia or New Zealand.

Cities in Asia and Europe have much much higher densities and therefore public transport is prioritised over cars, whilst in Adelaide it is the other way round.

The survey compared Bordeaux in France (exact same population to Adelaide, and 5th most important city in the country) however Bordeaux is much much smaller, you only need to travel 7 kms from the centre of Bordeaux to reach the countryside. I have been there and seen this with my own eyes.

The survey used Portland as the "American example"....totally inappropriate....Portland actually wants to have good public transport/bike lanes etc making them atypical of the American urban experience.

Here are some other examples of public transport in the USA using cities with populations similar to Adelaide.

1)Oklahoma City, pop 1.4 million, exactly the same as Adelaide, buses and a small cbd tram, only 7 bus routes travel after 7pm and 2 after 10pm

2) New Orleans, pop 1.3 million, legacy streetcar system (half transport system, half theme park ride) and buses

3) Jacksonville, pop 1.7 million, all buses no trams or trains

4) Richmond, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

5) Louisville, pop 1.4 million, all buses no trams or trains

6) Memphis, pop 1.3 million, all buses no trams or trains

7) Nashville, pop 2 million, buses, one commuter rail line ( 3 trains in the am, 3 trains in the pm)

8) Orlando, pop 2.6 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)

9) Tampa, pop 3 million, buses, one heritage streetcar (tram)

10) Columbus, 2 million, all buses, no trams or trains

11) Kansas City, pop 2.2 million, buses, small cbd tram, one BRT corridor

12) San Antonio, pop 2.6 million, all buses, no trams or trains

13) Austin, pop 2.2 million, buses, one commuter rail line (business hours only)
How easy is it in those cities to travel by public transport between two suburban points 90 degrees from the CBD?
You have made the assumption that every suburb of these American cities has public transport......not true....lots of outer suburbs of middle American cities do not have any public transport at all.

The most infamous example is Arlington Texas, 200-300,000 people right in the middle of the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area.
It has no regular bus or train or tram service. Instead there is an on-demand bus service and various bus shuttles to a major university or sport stadium. I dont know whether the on demand service even exists after 7pm.

Often American cities will have different authorities running different bus services depending on where you live ie you live in the city proper so the buses are run by the city transport....you live in the far northern suburbs and this bus service is run by a county authority.

I had a not so great experience arriving in New Orleans on a Saturday afternoon. I got a bus from the airport (run by a county that included New Orleans northern suburbs) that dropped me (and at least 15 other people) at major intersection that defined the boundary between the city of New Orleans and the county. We all had to wait for a New Orleans city bus for 15 minutes, there was no co-ordination of service....

Imagine getting a bus from Elizabeth that drops you at Grand Junction Rd where you wait for a bus run by the city....

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2014 Post by Jaymz » Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:58 pm

Article from Sunday Mail a couple days ago regarding Public Transport. Interesting reading......
We need more than a free ride to fix Adelaide’s public transport | Elizabeth Henson
Commuters are pumping the brakes on Adelaide’s public transport and not even a free ride is enough to get them back on board, writes Elizabeth Henson.

Elizabeth Henson
September 23, 2023 - 6:00PM
Sunday Mail (SA)

We all love a good freebie – but a free ride is not going to be a driver of change among Adelaide motorists.

Greens MLC Robert Simms this week called on the State Government to make South Australian public transport free for everyone in a bid to boost dwindling patronage. There’s been a 13 per cent decline in usage over the past four years.

Mr Simms says getting more people onto public transport is vital to reduce carbon emissions and congestion on our roads. He also acknowledges that improved frequency and access would assist in the matter.

But fares are already cheap, particularly when compared to the cost of petrol and paid-parking. Regular Metrocard holders pay $4.25 per trip during peak times and $2.40 in non-peak times, concession card holders pay even less and seniors don’t pay at all.

MetroTicket revenue totalled $77.9 million in 2022/23 while the overall cost of public transport for the year came in at $696.2 million. It’s an essential service – no one would expect the user fee to cover the entire cost but if commuters weren’t paying anything at all, that’s $77.9 million that would need to be found elsewhere in the State Budget.

It’s not the cost that makes commuters steer clear of Adelaide’s public transport – it’s the inconvenience: a lack of frequency and useful routes; and concerns over safety that makes them pump the brakes on the idea. I certainly wouldn’t be jumping on a bus or train at 11.30 at night, and I couldn’t after midnight anyway because they don’t run that late.

Don’t get me wrong, the trains and trams are fantastically efficient if you live near a station and need to go to the city during peak-hour. They beat the hell out of the buses.

But outside of these circumstances, Adelaide’s public transport system just doesn’t cut it and not even a freebie is going to get people on board.

To get more bums on seats, the system first needs to improve frequency. The Outer Harbour and Grange lines only have trains leaving every half-hour during the morning peak hour. And it needs more appropriate routes for suburb-to-suburb travel.

If you live in Largs Bay and work in Glenelg, your quickest public transport option involves taking a train into the city and then a tram out to the Bay, taking about 1.5 hours. If you jumped in your car, you’d be there in 30 minutes.

If you’re in Kilburn and want to get to Magill. It’s an hour trip via two buses. Halve that if you take your car.

A free ticket is not going to convince people to take two different modes of transport (three, if you had to drive to a station or bus stop) and add up to two hours onto a round trip. And it certainly won’t cancel out people’s safety concerns.

The theory goes, “if you build it, they will come” – not “they will come and then you can build it”.

The system needs to change before people will give it a go.

Until the services are more user-friendly the only thing free public transport will do is give people who already use the service (and are willing to pay for it), a free ride. Everyone else will just drive on.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2015 Post by cocoiadrop » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:00 pm

I agree fully with that article. Whilst I also agree with free public transport, in a context like Adelaide's it should be nowhere near the top of the priority list. People are willing to pay a reasonable amount for a good service like in many other cities.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2016 Post by ChillyPhilly » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 pm

The article is spot on.

Adelaide's public transport in its current state COULD be functional - if it were faster and more frequent.

Nowadays we see the consequences of a heavily underfunded system that has been neglected since the 1980s, and even earlier.


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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2017 Post by Jaymz » Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:17 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 pm
The article is spot on.

Adelaide's public transport in its current state COULD be functional - if it were faster and more frequent.

Nowadays we see the consequences of a heavily underfunded system that has been neglected since the 1980s, and even earlier.
Do you think $696 Million is underfunded though? Sounds like a lot of money. Or do you mean from infrastructure spend?

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2018 Post by joelmark2 » Tue Sep 26, 2023 2:53 am

Quite a well-written article. Yes, you’re only going to increase patronage significantly by building new infrastructure and services to wherever people want to go, and in Adelaide’s case it’s through the tram network.

Completing the electrification and increasing the frequency of the rail network will help a little, but it has its limitations as it’s essentially designed as a commuter network to funnel workers and shoppers into the city. Extensions to Aldinga or Concordia would be welcome, but probably with a negligible overall impact on usage.

However, the game-changer would be to revive the ADElink tram vision - and provide fast cross-inner suburban services that actually connect places people want to go, and with trams having rapid priority over road users. Imagine a route from the airport past the central market, and then connecting through to Norwood, or as has been mentioned numerous times here before, getting them across the Torrens to Prospect. But they have to be rapid, with priority over other road users and very frequent.

If people know they’ll perhaps have an extra five or ten minutes on a tram or train but with the comfort of being a passenger rather than a driver (so you can be on your phone or with a book), and have a well-designed, user-friendly starting point such as the recent infrastructure we’ve seen at Oaklands station or Bowden, and with minimal changes - they’ll consider it - but as the author says not a trip that takes a whole twice or three times as long.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2019 Post by ChillyPhilly » Tue Sep 26, 2023 12:35 pm

Jaymz wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:17 pm
ChillyPhilly wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2023 7:08 pm
The article is spot on.

Adelaide's public transport in its current state COULD be functional - if it were faster and more frequent.

Nowadays we see the consequences of a heavily underfunded system that has been neglected since the 1980s, and even earlier.
Do you think $696 Million is underfunded though? Sounds like a lot of money. Or do you mean from infrastructure spend?
$696m is a lot in its own right, but in a 21st century city that aspires to be modern, and in the same city where $15b is being spent on just several kilometres of road tunnels, it's a pittance.

Like in Melbourne and Victoria, I'd be quite happy for my tax dollars to serve new debt if it were to fund major new public and active infrastructure.

I also recommend everyone have a look at AnyTrip, if you have not already. It shows the live locations and movements of buses, trams and trains in Adelaide and surrounds: https://anytrip.com.au/region/adelaide
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2020 Post by SBD » Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:43 pm

Robert Simms was on the radio last week spruiking his plan.

I accept I live in an outer suburb - I rarely visit the CBD. On the day he was on the radio, Google Maps told me it would take 31 minutes to drive to the ABC, 1 hour 38 minutes by public transport (which included 14 minutes to walk to the bus stop) and only 1 hour 30 to ride a bike! The local suburban bus stop has neither car nor bike parking to reduce that 14 minute walk. It's two housing estates away - the one I live in has a street that looks designed for a bus route, but the bus doesn't use it.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2021 Post by Eurostar » Tue Sep 26, 2023 7:25 pm

Many main roads would benefit from bus priority whether b light, bus lane or both.

For examples on:

North East Road, Port Road, Main North Road (section between Gepps Cross and Elizabeth could be done quickly, ideally a setup similar to Hackney Road could speed up express buses )

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2022 Post by MT269 » Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:09 pm

I have to admit that first impression is not something that can be ignored. All buses built after the MAN NL202s are appalling structurally, and ride quality wise. With makes of these that have bad suspensions, you literally cannot ignore it when traversing a bump in the road surface. The ABM built MAN 18.280s are some of the worst for this, as well as CB80s. With the older Scanias, they don't tend to drop like a ton of lead like the MANs do, causing a loud bang. But I still prefer anything that isn't a Scania.

And I find Bustechs to be equally bad, if not even worse, to the point where I have literally had to stand on a near empty bus, due to discomfort when seated. But I haven't traveled on the latter enough recently to notice vibrations of backrests, and other annoyances which I noticed years ago. The newer ones (1046 onwards) are apparently very sturdy from a structural point of view, since they were introduced in 2020. But no idea what they're like from a passenger perspective.

In short, public transport in Adelaide isn't very attractive to car users.

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2023 Post by Aidan » Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:39 pm

SBD wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2023 6:43 pm
The local suburban bus stop has neither car nor bike parking to reduce that 14 minute walk. It's two housing estates away - the one I live in has a street that looks designed for a bus route, but the bus doesn't use it.
Which street is that? Are buses likely to use it in future?
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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2024 Post by PeFe » Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:28 pm

The state government has initiated a discussion process for the future of public transport in the northern suburbs.

Not sure that we are going to get anything more than buses from low density isolated suburbia connected to train stations (that have no significant population within a 10 minute walk) and more suburbia where the car is king and public transport an afterthought (and even more difficult to make work)

And the definition of "inner north" being north of Gepps Cross Rd........no.

From Indaily
Govt eyes new transport plan for car-dependent northern suburbs

The state government has begun work on a new transport planning study for Adelaide’s northern suburbs, amid calls for more public transport investment in the car-dependent region.

Image
A speed limit sign signalling the end of a school zone in Blakeview. Transport investment in the Adelaide's northern suburbs is set to go under the microscope. Photo: Thomas Kelsall/InDaily

The Adelaide North Transport Study will examine issues with transport in the northern suburbs and inform future transport investment, Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis announced today.

The Department of Infrastructure and Transport study will cover Adelaide’s inner northern suburbs around Modbury, Mawson Lakes, Salisbury and Golden Grove as well as the outer northern suburbs of Virginia, Angle Vale, Two Wells, Buckland Park and Roseworthy.

Image
A map of study area for the northern Adelaide transport study. Image: DIT/supplied

The 12-month study comes at a critical time for the northern suburbs’ development, with the state government expecting the region to shoulder much of Adelaide’s housing growth over the next 30 years.

The majority of new homes to be built under the Malinauskas government’s “single largest release of residential land in the state’s history” are in Dry Creek (10,000 homes), Concordia (10,000 homes) and Golden Grove (500 homes).

That’s not including Walker Corporation’s major housing estate at Riverlea in the northwest, which is anticipated to deliver an additional 12,000 homes and 40,000 residents.

The northern suburbs have already experienced significant population growth. The outer north – comprising the Playford, Gawler, Light, Adelaide Plains and Barossa council areas – added 13,000 people between 2016 and 2021, according to census data.

Image
New housing along Newton’s Boulevard, Munno Para. Photo: Thomas Kelsall/InDaily

But northern suburbs councils have been urging the state government to invest more in public transport due to concerns about local road congestion and poorly sequenced housing developments.

The Adelaide Plains Council, for example, told the government last year that housing and employment growth in its area would soon outstrip what councils and developers could support.

“Historically, there has been lack of State Government funding of services within Adelaide Plains and Two Wells other than roads, e.g., no public health services, no public transport (bus or rail), and limited education facilities,” the council said in its submission to the government’s Greater Adelaide Regional Plan discussion paper.

“There is limited community transport across Adelaide Plains.

“If residential and employment growth is proposed at Two Wells… then demand for services (physical and social) and infrastructure upgrades will increase exponentially and Council and development sector will not be able to fully fund.”

The City of Playford also complained to the government last year that “excluding Riverlea, no consideration has been made for public transport” and this is creating “car-dependent communities”.

“Due to the residential growth occurring at Riverlea, Virginia, Angle Vale and Two Wells… and future growth earmarked for Dry Creek in the City of Salisbury… there is a need to identify a suitable future rapid mass transit corridor that is separate to the road network,” Playford council said.

“Without this, future traffic congestion issues will impact people’s quality of life who live and work in the region as well as detrimentally impacting the environment through car emissions.”

A state government fact sheet prepared for its new transport study outlines that car ownership is slightly higher – and public transport usage lower – in the northern suburbs compared to the rest of Adelaide

Only 5.7 per cent of commuters in Adelaide’s north catch public transport to work, compared to the Greater Adelaide average of 6.4 per cent.

Further, 93 per cent of residents in the northern suburbs own a car – higher than the Greater Adelaide average of 92.4 per cent.

The percentage of northern suburbs commuters who cycle to work is less than one per cent.

A state government spokesperson said the new transport plan will “consider ways to encourage public and active transport use as part of this long-term planning”.

Asked whether Walker Corporation’s Riverlea development and Adelaide’s northwest should be connected by a train line, the spokesperson said: “The State Government is not currently planning for a north-west passenger rail connection but it is something that could be considered as the population increases over time.

“Questions such as these about future investment decisions will be informed by the transport study.

“We want to understand the transport needs and priorities of people living in northern Adelaide, which in turn will inform future spending decisions.”

The northern suburbs are currently serviced by the recently electrified Gawler line, which connects the CBD with Mawson Lakes, Salisbury, Elizabeth, Munno Para and terminates at Gawler.

But an area and population as big as the northern suburbs would in other major cities be serviced by five to six train lines, according to Dr Charlie Hargroves, Sustainable Development Adjunct Fellow at the University of Adelaide’s Business School.

“We’ve got quite a lot of corridors here that are practically automobile dependent,” Hargroves said of the northern suburbs study area.

“We’ve got a train line that runs right through the centre… with quite a number of stations, but they only really service about 10 per cent of the entire area.”

Image
he Munno Para train station along the Gawler line in Adelaide’s northern suburbs. Photo: Thomas Kelsall/InDaily

Hargroves said “cost-effective mid-tier transit” options – such as trackless trams, which don’t require expensive rail infrastructure – should be on the government’s radar.

He also said having around 95 per cent of northern suburbs commuters taking a car to work is a “significant brake on economic development” which “ also makes it difficult to attract people”.

“I think there’s obviously been a pretty heavy focus in the previous funding rounds around roadways and road extensions and particularly linking between some the major corridors to try and reduce a bit of congestion,” he said.

Image
A battery-powered trackless tram operating in Zhuzhou, China. Photo: CRRC Zhuzhou Institute/Author provided

“The focus seems… to be on automobile sort of centric transport solutions, but when you look at the stats and it says 5.6 per cent of people are catching public transport and there’s a massive congestion issue – surely that key focus is going to be the public transport area.”

Consultation on the Adelaide North Transport Plan closes on March 3.

https://indaily.com.au/news/local/2024/ ... n-suburbs/

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Re: News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

#2025 Post by Norman » Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:10 pm

They lost me at "trackless trams". It's a bus.

Living here for just under a year it is clear that public transport is very infrequent and very limited in where it goes. I have been more reliant on my car than ever before.

The basics they need to do include:
- Increasing weekend train frequency to every 15 or 20 minutes
- Add additional train services into the peak shoulder periods of 9am to 11am and 3pm to 5pm
- Introduce on-demand bus services to cover gaps in cross-suburban routes
- Align more bus services to service mid-sized shopping centres such as Hollywood Plaza
- Turn Parafield Station into an interchange with connecting buses along Kings Road and McIntyre Road towards Golden Grove and/or Tea Tree Plaza
- Introduce a frequent connector bus between Mawson Lakes and Port Adelaide along the Port River Expressway.

Other things they should be doing include:
- Completing the Gawler Greenway along the railway line. There are several missing parts, including Islington to Mawson Lakes and Parafield to Salisbury
- Duplicating Ender Smith Drive and connecting it to Port Wakefield Road

These things aren't hard or expensive. They just need some planning and budgeting from the State Government.

Further down the track they can include more expensive things like:
- Connecting Salisbury Highway to Montague Road
- Connecting rail to Riverlea/Virginia
- Build a third track between Ovingham or Dudley Park and Grand Junction Road to allow express trains to pass.
- Extend the platforms and run 6-car trains in peak hours.

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