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Aidan wrote:

Ben wrote:It would be "cool" however the reality is Adelaide simply does not need one and won't in the foreseeable future.

Just how overloaded and slow must our road system be before you think we need a subway?

Whilst I agree un underground loop or through lines are essential to even out development and get the best potential of the CBD, I do not believe it will resolve many metropolitan road issues as it does not address commercial transport, school traffic (a major commuter issue) or the fact that the vast majority of work related travel is not into the CBD itself.

Aidan wrote:

Ben wrote:It would be "cool" however the reality is Adelaide simply does not need one and won't in the foreseeable future.

Just how overloaded and slow must our road system be before you think we need a subway?

I'm thinking a full public transport system?

How does a tunnel in the CBD possibly come close to fixing congestion.

Ben wrote:How does a tunnel in the CBD possibly come close to fixing congestion.

There are plenty of cities out there which have addressed this very problem and come up with a great number of reasons why such tunnels fix congestion.

Given that these cities (some of which are similar to Adelaide in Population) have come to that conclusion, it seems that the question ought to be: "How can anyone think that a metro system, properly located, would NOT fix congestion?"

Really, the only issue is whether or not Adelaideans are prepared to pay the cost of such a tunnel, or whether we prefer to put up with the congestion.

I have recently retired, so from my perspective...meh.

Ok maybe I'm getting this wrong but are we talking about a loop of under ground trains in the cbd. I am yet to have anyone explain how that will ease congestion throughout Adelaide. We don't have the population to support such extravagant infrastructure. Would a tramloop not do the same thing and be billions cheaper? As I said maybe I am misunderstanding this concept.

I don't think there's anything to imply it would be a "loop". Surely it would be a route connecting the northern lines to the southern lines via the city, as has cropped up in other visions. It would be similar to when the tram was first extended, thereby bringing people much closer to their destination rather than dumping them on the edge of the city core and forcing them to walk or transfer from there.

(And we do have the population to support it. The question is do we have the population density to support it.)

Nathan wrote:I don't think there's anything to imply it would be a "loop". Surely it would be a route connecting the northern lines to the southern lines via the city, as has cropped up in other visions. It would be similar to when the tram was first extended, thereby bringing people much closer to their destination rather than dumping them on the edge of the city core and forcing them to walk or transfer from there.

(And we do have the population to support it. The question is do we have the population density to support it.)

Of course we have the population density to support it! Subways that link existing railways don't require a high population density. And the City has a high employment density.

From the north it would indeed be similar to when the tram was extended, but from the south the benefits would be a lot bigger. People could catch a train straight into the southern half of the City instead of having to stay on the train until it goes right past the City and then having to waste up to twenty minutes backtracking!

Aidan wrote:Of course we have the population density to support it! Subways that link existing railways don't require a high population density. And the City has a high employment density.

Really? We don't have the population density to run regular bus and rail services as it is (except for a few go-zone bus routes), nor run trains that are more than 2 railcars long, yet we do have the density to justify a subway??? Sure the presence of a subway through the city will create an increase in patronage, but I'd say we have a long way to go in increasing density along the rail corridors before there would be enough demand for it to be anywhere near viable.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to happen. But other things need to fall in to place first before it can be considered seriously.

Nathan wrote:

Aidan wrote:Of course we have the population density to support it! Subways that link existing railways don't require a high population density. And the City has a high employment density.

Really? We don't have the population density to run regular bus and rail services as it is (except for a few go-zone bus routes),

Where did you hear that rubbish? Our buses are fairly well patronised - but we don't have enough buses or enough bus drivers, or the political will to fund more services.

nor run trains that are more than 2 railcars long,

It sounds like your experiences of Adelaide trains are limited to the Belair Line - but even so, have you forgotten seeing the longer trains of the Noarlunga Line? Or is it that you occasionally see trains but don't use them?

yet we do have the density to justify a subway???

Absolutely!

Sure the presence of a subway through the city will create an increase in patronage, but I'd say we have a long way to go in increasing density along the rail corridors before there would be enough demand for it to be anywhere near viable.

WTF do you mean by viable?

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to happen. But other things need to fall in to place first before it can be considered seriously.

If we wait for things to fall into place then they won't - we have to build our own future.

Sure the concept of a subway sounds nice - makes us feel somewhat grown up in comparison to other major scale cities - but this is simply a dream concocted by some Government staff with time on their hands, and would fail any cost-benefit analysis for the next 100 or so years I would imagine. Adelaide has a hell of a lot of higher priorities than a single tunnel train solution at the moment and this sort of thing simply distracts people from key issues.

Aidan wrote:

Nathan wrote:

Aidan wrote:Of course we have the population density to support it! Subways that link existing railways don't require a high population density. And the City has a high employment density.

Really? We don't have the population density to run regular bus and rail services as it is (except for a few go-zone bus routes),

Where did you hear that rubbish? Our buses are fairly well patronised - but we don't have enough buses or enough bus drivers, or the political will to fund more services.

Out of peak, are they really that busy?
Train services that run only once every half hour outside peak, and only once every hour at night, are not what I call anywhere near "regular".

nor run trains that are more than 2 railcars long,

It sounds like your experiences of Adelaide trains are limited to the Belair Line - but even so, have you forgotten seeing the longer trains of the Noarlunga Line? Or is it that you occasionally see trains but don't use them?

Aside from some 3 car sets during peak, are you telling me that Adelaide trains aren't generally 1 or 2 cars only?

Sure the presence of a subway through the city will create an increase in patronage, but I'd say we have a long way to go in increasing density along the rail corridors before there would be enough demand for it to be anywhere near viable.

WTF do you mean by viable?

Viable as in the patronage is high enough to justify the extremely large outlay. You know, like what the dictionary says.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to happen. But other things need to fall in to place first before it can be considered seriously.

If we wait for things to fall into place then they won't - we have to build our own future.

This isn't SimCity. Whilst we do have to build out own future, we can't just go blowing all our money on a train set before sufficient demand and need is there.

From The Advertiser

Quote:
Deputy Prime Minister Anthony Albanese tours first electric train at Seaford


THE wraps have come off the first of Adelaide's electric trains.

Deputy Prime Minister Anthony Albanese this morning toured the fully assembled Bombardier A-City Class 4000 train at Seaford Meadows.

It is the first of 22 electric trains to be delivered over the next 18 months .

The train will be track tested over the coming months before the first electric services on the Seaford line early next year.

An express journey between Seaford and the city is expected to take 35 minutes on the new trains, which boast a capacity of about 500 people.

Features of the trains also include CCTV cameras front, back and inside, high capacity airconditioning, and a maximum speed of 110km/h.

The Seaford line is the only line to so far be electrified.

In June, $152.4 million in funding over three years was allocated for the electrification of the Gawler line to Dry Creek.

However, diesel cars will still operate on the line for passenger services, with the electrification initially used for moving carriages to the Dry Creek depot.

The State Government is now investigating having passengers on electrified services on the Gawler line and a report will be handed down soon.

Mr Albanese said the unveiling today was a significant milestone, and the Noarlunga line extension to Seaford was now complete.

"If not tackled in such a balanced way, the cost of congestion here in Adelaide will double to $1.1 billion a year by the end of the decade," he said.

SA Transport Minister Tom Koutsantonis said the Government wanted to build a greener and more reliable urban rail network for SA.

"Part of that vision is the newly built, jointly funded Seaford rail extension," he said.

"We can move 500 people with great frequency, nearly every 15 minutes, on this rail line from Seaford and the south into the city.

"That's great for the Adelaide Oval, that's great for the CBD, and most importantly it's going to rejuvenate the southern suburbs."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226688827924

two more images

zippySA wrote:Sure the concept of a subway sounds nice - makes us feel somewhat grown up in comparison to other major scale cities - but this is simply a dream concocted by some Government staff with time on their hands,

On the contrary, government staff proposed subways before the 1980s, but they probably don't even have the capability any more. The North Terrace - Gawler Place - Victoria Square - Whitmore Square - Keswick route wasn't concocted by them, it was developed by me.

and would fail any cost-benefit analysis for the next 100 or so years I would imagine.

Then you clearly have a rather poor understanding of the situation - do you really think our roads and rather limited public transport system will be sufficient for a century?

Show me a cost benefit analysis that fails it and I will show you the errors in that cost benefit analysis!

Adelaide has a hell of a lot of higher priorities than a single tunnel train solution at the moment and this sort of thing simply distracts people from key issues.

This is a key issue and deserves very high priority.

Nathan wrote:

Aidan wrote:

Nathan wrote:
Really? We don't have the population density to run regular bus and rail services as it is (except for a few go-zone bus routes),

Where did you hear that rubbish? Our buses are fairly well patronised - but we don't have enough buses or enough bus drivers, or the political will to fund more services.

Out of peak, are they really that busy?

Yes, though obviously some routes are busier than others.

Train services that run only once every half hour outside peak, and only once every hour at night, are not what I call anywhere near "regular".

Frequency and regularity are not the same thing, but a higher service frequency is definitely needed.

nor run trains that are more than 2 railcars long,

It sounds like your experiences of Adelaide trains are limited to the Belair Line - but even so, have you forgotten seeing the longer trains of the Noarlunga Line? Or is it that you occasionally see trains but don't use them?

Aside from some 3 car sets during peak, are you telling me that Adelaide trains aren't generally 1 or 2 cars only?

Yes.

Sure the presence of a subway through the city will create an increase in patronage, but I'd say we have a long way to go in increasing density along the rail corridors before there would be enough demand for it to be anywhere near viable.

WTF do you mean by viable?

Viable as in the patronage is high enough to justify the extremely large outlay. You know, like what the dictionary says.[/quote]
Then yes, it would definitely be viable.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to happen. But other things need to fall in to place first before it can be considered seriously.

If we wait for things to fall into place then they won't - we have to build our own future.

This isn't SimCity. Whilst we do have to build out own future, we can't just go blowing all our money on a train set before sufficient demand and need is there.

When transport to our CBD is so bad that it's more lucrative to build parking structures than to build office buildings, how can you doubt that sufficient demand and need is there?