Sensational-Adelaide.com

claybro wrote:
Whilst I agree un underground loop or through lines are essential to even out development and get the best potential of the CBD, I do not believe it will resolve many metropolitan road issues as it does not address commercial transport, school traffic (a major commuter issue) or the fact that the vast majority of work related travel is not into the CBD itself.

With fewer cars on the road, there would be less of the congestion that slows commercial transport down.

Is school traffic really a major commuter issue? Obviously it causes congestion around schools, but how many schools are in locations where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system?

And a railway tunnel under the City would greatly improve rail's usefulness for cross city journeys. And there are other things that should be done to make rail more useful for these journeys, such as constructing a western entrance at Kilburn station snd running more buses from stations to suburban employment areas. Even so, a lot of work related suburb to suburb travel is short distance. Rail won't help with that, but that's not likely to cause very much congestion anyway.

Aidan wrote:Is school traffic really a major commuter issue? Obviously it causes congestion around schools, but how many schools are in locations where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system?

My journey to work in school holidays is up to 10 minutes quicker (over a 45 min journey). Yes congestion is worse immediately adjacent to schools, but Aiden, it really shocks me you have to ask how many schools are near major arterial roads. There are many schools immediately on or near arterial roads.(Black Forrest and Richmond primary on South road immediately spring to mind) Westbourne Park on Goodwood, Mitcham Girls on Belair...I could go on and on..And parents get to all schools by using arterial roads. So yes, school traffic is a major issue, and an underground city loop will not solve this and many other issues in the suburbs. I do strongly agree that a CBD rail tunnel is needed for the future, but only in the context of improving access to the CBD, and I would prefer to see our goat tracks we call arterial roads upgraded and not at the expense of a rail tunnel, because I do not think we will get both.

zippySA wrote:Sure the concept of a subway sounds nice - makes us feel somewhat grown up in comparison to other major scale cities - but this is simply a dream concocted by some Government staff with time on their hands, and would fail any cost-benefit analysis for the next 100 or so years I would imagine. Adelaide has a hell of a lot of higher priorities than a single tunnel train solution at the moment and this sort of thing simply distracts people from key issues.

Are you saying that you don't think Adelaide has traffic problems?

By that I mean, does your 'key issues' list mean other transport priorities to solve traffic problems, or that you think there are no traffic problems, and we should be addressing other things?

The point is that many people here think that there are severe transport problems in SA, so if you are disagreeing with that, then it would be interesting to see your reasons. If OTOH you think that there is a traffic problem for which there are other transport solutions, it would be interesting to see what you think those priorities might be. (even if it were the general transport forum, rather than this).

Whatever, I am sure that your comments have some well thought out reasons behind them which would be interesting to hear.

claybro wrote:

Aidan wrote:Is school traffic really a major commuter issue? Obviously it causes congestion around schools, but how many schools are in locations where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system?

My journey to work in school holidays is up to 10 minutes quicker (over a 45 min journey). Yes congestion is worse immediately adjacent to schools, but Aiden, it really shocks me you have to ask how many schools are near major arterial roads. There are many schools immediately on or near arterial roads.(Black Forrest and Richmond primary on South road immediately spring to mind) Westbourne Park on Goodwood, Mitcham Girls on Belair...I could go on and on..And parents get to all schools by using arterial roads. So yes, school traffic is a major issue, and an underground city loop will not solve this and many other issues in the suburbs. I do strongly agree that a CBD rail tunnel is needed for the future, but only in the context of improving access to the CBD, and I would prefer to see our goat tracks we call arterial roads upgraded and not at the expense of a rail tunnel, because I do not think we will get both.

Having a train run under the CBD will make train travel more attractive to people who work further away from Adelaide Railway Station. Yes, I know we can say that they should just walk to Victoria Square instead if they work there, it's good for their health and so on, but not everyone thinks like that. Not only that, it will also speed up travel times to the city from the south, and a faster ride to work is again another attractive feature of a revitalised train service.

claybro wrote: My journey to work in school holidays is up to 10 minutes quicker (over a 45 min journey). Yes congestion is worse immediately adjacent to schools, but Aiden, it really shocks me you have to ask how many schools are near major arterial roads. There are many schools immediately on or near arterial roads.(Black Forrest and Richmond primary on South road immediately spring to mind) Westbourne Park on Goodwood, Mitcham Girls on Belair...I could go on and on..And parents get to all schools by using arterial roads. So yes, school traffic is a major issue, and an underground city loop will not solve this and many other issues in the suburbs. I do strongly agree that a CBD rail tunnel is needed for the future, but only in the context of improving access to the CBD, and I would prefer to see our goat tracks we call arterial roads upgraded and not at the expense of a rail tunnel, because I do not think we will get both.

I didn't ask how many schools are near major arterial roads. I asked how many are in locations where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system, and that's very different. Take your example of Black Forest Primary: most of the catchment is local and has no need to drive down South Road, and the limited turning opportunities make driving that way a relatively unattractive option. I'd expect its main effect on South Road traffic to be from the use of the pedestrian crossing. Though a pressure group to build a footbridge exists, and the location is very well suited to a pedestrian underpass, the government are in no hurry to get rid of the traffic lights despite their safety and traffic implications.

Obviously there would be some schools, such as Mitcham Girls, where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system, but your ten minute figure surprises me.

Pics of Keswick / Wayville - Monday:

Footbridge permanently closed & part of deck removed

Aidan wrote:Obviously there would be some schools, such as Mitcham Girls, where the congestion spreads onto the arterial road system, but your ten minute figure surprises me.

Some parents would take time off during holidays to spend with their children, this removes some cars from the city drive.
And many students at Uni of SA, Adelaide Uni and TAFE City Campus are also on holidays, so the ones that drive are no longer commuting to the city, as well as those from South travelling to Mawson Lakes, or from north to Flinders etc.
I'm not sure what % actually commutes by car to city campus', but I'm sure it's still a decent amount.

I'm always surprised by how much better the traffic is during school holidays. Driving from the hills it can comfortably save me 20 minutes on the morning drive. Not having people commuting to Uni, and having a lot of people go on holidays (the car parks are never as full in school holidays) makes a big difference as well as the actual school traffic.

Aidan wrote:

zippySA wrote:Sure the concept of a subway sounds nice - makes us feel somewhat grown up in comparison to other major scale cities - but this is simply a dream concocted by some Government staff with time on their hands,

On the contrary, government staff proposed subways before the 1980s, but they probably don't even have the capability any more. The North Terrace - Gawler Place - Victoria Square - Whitmore Square - Keswick route wasn't concocted by them, it was developed by me.

Your an absolute legend aren't you Aidan

I was down as far as Port Noarlunga yesterday and saw how much wiring etc. had been done on the rail bridge above Lonsdale Road.

I was surprised to see how far a little difference like this can go in making Adelaide look more mature!

Rubberman,
Yes, I was implying that there are surely better traffic / congenstion related projects than the undergrounding of a rail line in the CBD for Adelaide. I would be interested to hear where this underground line would foreseeably go within the CBD - I see mention of a loop I assume starting and ending at the central station - an aweful lot of money to try and cover a single square mile city with small population.

I haven't happened to undertake privately any detailed analysis of the solutions - and am not brave or foolish enough to think that I have the magic bullet solution when there are no doubt many talented people and organisations working on optimal solutions. But I do feel we over-play the issue in Adelaide, our concept of congestion is fairly laughable when compared to other major cities but that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek better solutions.

Ultimately, I would like to think that we move towards better utilisation of what I deem generous road corridors as technology advances and alternatives to current transport options evolve - and I believe alternative options will be available well before a tunnel system in Adelaide becomes a reality or viable option.

I should clarify, the proposal for an underground CBD loop in Adelaide is not to be a 'loop' in the true meaning of the word in rail terminology. The train networks of Sydney and Melbourne have shared loops, where multiple trains come in from Point X, Y, Z into the one CBD loop, stopping at multiple stations throughout and then eventually doing a full circuit and and going back out to their respective points of origin.

Once a critical mass has been reached in a train loop system, it actually ends up impeding the efficiency of the train network and causes chronic congestion as due to over capacity and signalling issues, (think of it as like 50 cars on a 200m stretch of a 3 lane road having to merge into a 1 lane road) - thus, meaning that not as many trains can pass through the loop in a given hour. When you've got busy systems like Melbourne, where some lines are already at maximum capacity, having to share the loop with other lines which are also near or at capacity, you begin to understand the magnitude of the congestion issues over there. Fortunately, Melbourne Metro in conjunction with Public Transport Victoria are working collabroatively on a scheme, which by 2030 will actually untangle the CBD loop, and introduce a lot more Point A to Point B services via a couple of CBD stations (not all) throughfares, which is an internationally proven and vastly more efficient way of running a train network.

In Adelaide's case, the idea of a 'loop' really comes from the vision that if a underground link/subway were to be built, on a map, it would look like a loop, but not actually be one - it will still be a throughfare (as it should be!) taking passengers from Point A to Point B via the CBD. You can see for yourself on page 45 of the Adelaide City Council's Smart Move Strategy envisions an underground train route lining the Gawler line via Adelaide Railway Station > Hindmarsh Square > Victoria Square > West Terrace and then connect to the Seaford Line.

http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/asse ... gy-web.pdf

Personally, I would prefer a more route akin to the MATS 1968 proposal, minus the Rundle Mall stop, and City South stop relocated adjacent the South Terrace tram stop.

Zippy,

Thanks for that. I was not sure where you were coming from.

I agree with your comments on the loop. I was thinking more about a real metro. While I also agree with your comments on congestion in Adelaide compared to elsewhere in part, there are strategic areas where it is very bad - South Road comes to mind, and that is a major feeder for commercial and commuter traffic. Of course, if transport is bad, then it becomes self fulfilling, in the sense that industry and commerce will not locate itself in Adelaide if it means significant delays due to traffic congestion. Just imagine the problems a parts manufacturer in the south would have had trying to get parts up to Elizabeth for example. It would have added a lot of useless cost to the business. However, that has resolved itself due to car manufacturing being dead down south. I also agree with Aidans point that if the traffic situation is such that it is more economic to build car parks in the CBD rather than buildings with employees, then there is something seriousy wrong somewhere. Usually, a secondary use like car parking is pushed to the edges of cities, since office, commercial and retail usages are normally much higher value. The fact that parking has a higher value than one would normally expect, suggests that people are paying a premium compared to other cities which would have a higher proportion of commercial, retail and office. For whatever reason, the usual optimum low cost solution in other cities which is often car parks on the fringes, and with metro or tram type last mile transport into the city, does not seem to apply in Adelaide.

What will be the highest frequency possible on the Noarlanga/Seaford once the update is complete?