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claybro wrote:The greatest tragedy with the refusal of permanent facilities in Vic park, was the subsequent demise of the turf racing...

Can you support that assertion?

Surely the demise of turf racing was brought about by the demise of turf racing. The industry has been struggling to make turf racing relevant to people other than gamblers for years. With the exception of a couple of special events, one which has its own public holiday, turf racing is quickly becoming a non-starter.

monotonehell wrote:

claybro wrote:The greatest tragedy with the refusal of permanent facilities in Vic park, was the subsequent demise of the turf racing...

Can you support that assertion?

Surely the demise of turf racing was brought about by the demise of turf racing. The industry has been struggling to make turf racing relevant to people other than gamblers for years. With the exception of a couple of special events, one which has its own public holiday, turf racing is quickly becoming a non-starter.

Demise of turf racing? Still a multi million dollar industry, even in SA last I checked. Remember the 10s of thousands that attended to watch Black Caviar at Morphettville? Granted Morphettville is not well attended weekly, but a redeveloped Vic Park would have provided a great marketing opportunity for corporate race days mid week/evenings or under lights. The Christmas twilight race meets were well attended at Vic Park. Anyway, it would appear a least a massive co-incidence that once the multi purpose stand was stopped, the SAJC abandoned Vic Park in its future plans. The SAJC could not afford to go it alone to bring this tracks spectator facilities up to standard and maintain Morphettville. The government also lost the will to fight the idiotic Rose Park mafia, and here we are left with a sleepy but pleasant corner of the parklands for much of the year....just like everywhere else. A golden opportunity lost for a CBD racing atmosphere that would have been unique to Adelaide.

Oh please. If you want to see an underdeveloped city, just look at the US.

Los Angeles - The CBD is basically a slum, dirty all over and plenty of vacant land.
Orlando - Almost no big buildings in its CBD, despite having a metro population of more than 2m people
Houston - A dead zone pretty much 24/7, the new tram system is basically running empty and mostly carries homeless people
Atlanta - Nice CBD, but dead after hours. Almost no retail outlets to speak of. NBA Stadium near the city is almost inaccessible on foot

And taxes? There is no stamp duty for apartments purchased off the plan.

I don't really know how much more they can do. Unfortunately demand for apartments is not as high as some people may think. Even in Docklands 80% of the apartments are unoccupied. It's really only the Chinese investors funnelling their money offshore that has created all these buildings. Same in Dubai, a lot of the high-end apartment towers are owned by members of the Russian Mafia, and are also not fully occupied.

And let's not even start talking about China...

Yeah no doubt there are some cities in the US that are shabby, I was there recently and your forgot to mention Austin, San Jose, San Fran, Seattle dare i mention New York and others that are booming with development. How about cities closer to home with similar population like Brisbane and Perth?? I realise they are resource rich, but something needs to change, we seem so reactive rather than proactive as a city in general.

I was not talking about vacant developments due to Chinese investors and you forget to mention the cashed up baby boomers, I was talking about developments not even getting off the ground period her in Adelaide. You look at the amount of private investment in Adelaide in the last 25 years and your happy with that??

Stamp duty has aways been paid on apartments off the plan it was only ever a concession off the normal stamp duty depending on the amount purchased, and those grants ceased on the 19 of June 2016. They could do a lot more to help investment. Also the developers still had to pay stamp duty on the original purchase which like i said is up there with the highest in the world

serca wrote:Yeah no doubt there are some cities in the US that are shabby, I was there recently and your forgot to mention Austin, San Jose, San Fran, Seattle dare i mention New York and others that are booming with development. How about cities closer to home with similar population like Brisbane and Perth?? I realise they are resource rich, but something needs to change, we seem so reactive rather than proactive as a city in general.

I was responding to your claim that "I don't think this happens in most other developed cities the size of Adelaide." I have given you examples of some of the places I have actually visited and have enough knowledge about to rebut this claim, not ones I haven't been to.

Regarding Brisbane and Perth, both have much smaller footprints in their CBD size, and a much higher population growth level mostly because of the mining boom. I would foresee a lot less construction in those cities now that the mining boom has died. Look at Elizabeth Quay in Perth. It was mooted as the jewel in Perth's crown, but now that the state is in recession the project is on the verge of collapsing. So now almost the entire private developer part in the quay is now stalled.

serca wrote:I was not talking about vacant developments due to Chinese investors and you forget to mention the cashed up baby boomers, I was talking about developments not even getting off the ground period her in Adelaide. You look at the amount of private investment in Adelaide in the last 25 years and your happy with that??

Well, to build these buildings you need to have investors. If the projects interstate (and possibly here) are sold to these investors that are funnelling money outside their country of course the projects will go ahead. It's only the higher profile of Sydney and Melbourne that makes them more attractive to foreign buyers. The rental yield in those cities is shocking compared to the ones in Hobart and Adelaide, so clearly they are not in it for the rental return.

serca wrote:Stamp duty has aways been paid on apartments off the plan it was only ever a concession off the normal stamp duty depending on the amount purchased, and those grants ceased on the 19 of June 2016. They could do a lot more to help investment. Also the developers still had to pay stamp duty on the original purchase which like i said is up there with the highest in the world

The concessions were extended in last month's state budget. In fact, they are now available all over SA.

If the stamp duty on buying the land was so high, why would they buy the land and propose something in the first place? So clearly it is something not related to the initial land purchase cost. Do you have any figures to show that our stamp duty is the highest in the world?

Norman wrote:Regarding Brisbane and Perth, both have much smaller footprints in their CBD size, and a much higher population growth level mostly because of the mining boom. I would foresee a lot less construction in those cities now that the mining boom has died. Look at Elizabeth Quay in Perth. It was mooted as the jewel in Perth's crown, but now that the state is in recession the project is on the verge of collapsing. So now almost the entire private developer part in the quay is now stalled.

Regarding Elizabeth Quay,..not true. The hotel and apartment towers are just about commence construction-the announcement made last week. The only component on hold (for about 2 years) is the Chevron HQ office tower. At the other end of Perth CBD "The Westin" hotel is currently under construction. At the far western end is the new Western Mining HQ and as part of this cluster another apartment and hotel complex at around 48 storeys. In the near vicinity of the Perth CBD there are, just at a casual glance about 5 other apartment towers in excess of 30 storeys currently under construction now. Perth even despite the supposed collapse is growing at around 30000 new residents per year. Sorry to say, but Perth even in a bust achieves growth Adelaide could only dream of.

claybro wrote:

Norman wrote:Regarding Brisbane and Perth, both have much smaller footprints in their CBD size, and a much higher population growth level mostly because of the mining boom. I would foresee a lot less construction in those cities now that the mining boom has died. Look at Elizabeth Quay in Perth. It was mooted as the jewel in Perth's crown, but now that the state is in recession the project is on the verge of collapsing. So now almost the entire private developer part in the quay is now stalled.

Regarding Elizabeth Quay,..not true. The hotel and apartment towers are just about commence construction-the announcement made last week. The only component on hold (for about 2 years) is the Chevron HQ office tower. At the other end of Perth CBD "The Westin" hotel is currently under construction. At the far western end is the new Western Mining HQ and as part of this cluster another apartment and hotel complex at around 48 storeys. In the near vicinity of the Perth CBD there are, just at a casual glance about 5 other apartment towers in excess of 30 storeys currently under construction now. Perth even despite the supposed collapse is growing at around 30000 new residents per year. Sorry to say, but Perth even in a bust achieves growth Adelaide could only dream of.

My bad, I was going off media reports from a few months ago, so I was wrong about that. The growth numbers will be interesting to follow over coming months. It will be more than Adelaide for the foreseeable future, but nowhere near what it used to be.

Norman wrote: My bad, I was going off media reports from a few months ago, so I was wrong about that. The growth numbers will be interesting to follow over coming months. It will be more than Adelaide for the foreseeable future, but nowhere near what it used to be.

Listening to the media, you would think Adelaide also was about to close down. And yet whenever I am over there I still find a thriving little metropolis, a CBD more vibrant than Perth with new construction everywhere. Same here with Perth media. Listen to the drama queens and you would expect Perth is about to drop off into the Indian Ocean. There are cranes everywhere here, most have gone up SINCE the mining downturn. The thing with boom and bust cycles is that once the boom is over, there are some lovely shiny things in place that would never have normally been built. Interesting to note, a pint of beer is still routinely $11 here and coffee is still $4.80 a cup. No one seems to have sent the memo to my local café/pub strip that the boom is over. I do hope the Le Cornu site does not end up like that other Le Cornu site.

I have also actually been to those cities recently. Ironically enough to visit a friend and another skilled/ qualified worker leaving Adelaide, like many others. He is helping establish in the US a Sydney based developer, who has invested in every major city in Australia besides Adelaide..... Typical really

Like I said take away government funded projects and what private investment you see in Adelaide over the past 25 years is disgraceful. I love Adelaide and its lifestyle but this is a development thread and im sure we are all passionate or interested about seeing growth . Our laid back, reserved and conservative mindset and government policies are not helping us grow as prosper.

Sorry, I didn't realise the stamp duty grants had been extended, good stuff !!!!!

Adelaide and South Australia have a lot of problems, mainly jobs and the economy. However, we also have a lot of positives. Our city centres is one of the most walkable and vibrant I have been to. Sure, there are many which are better than us in those categories, especially in Europe, but we are doing alright and things are getting better.

The economy isn't everything. Even though Texas is one of the richest places in the world, the city centres of Dallas and Houston are dead, because the people prefer to stay in their suburbs and go to shopping malls instead.

Darwin has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Australia, but you wouldn't know it judging by the crime and homelessness all over the cities and suburbs.

What I'm trying to say is that just because we don't have massive towers everywhere doesn't mean we are stuffed as a city and a state and on the bottom of the pack in everything. We are a city in transition, so let's just wait and see what it brings us.

serca wrote:I have also actually been to those cities recently. Ironically enough to visit a friend and another skilled/ qualified worker leaving Adelaide, like many others. He is helping establish in the US a Sydney based developer, who has invested in every major city in Australia besides Adelaide..... Typical really

Like I said take away government funded projects and what private investment you see in Adelaide over the past 25 years is disgraceful. I love Adelaide and its lifestyle but this is a development thread and im sure we are all passionate or interested about seeing growth . Our laid back, reserved and conservative mindset and government policies are not helping us grow as prosper.

Sorry, I didn't realise the stamp duty grants had been extended, good stuff !!!!!

Before 2010, yes this is true. However, over the last 3-5 years there has been a big rise in private investment.....Who would of thought of a 36 level building being proposed in the East End precinct years ago or a TOD rising above the old Clipsal site.

Not to mention, the mindset is becoming more proactive and optimistic about the future (excluding jobs). The State Government has also been very proactive in reducing red tape and investing billions back into the city which is encouraging further private investment and transforming Adelaide into a modern happening city. TBH the feel of the city has changed so much in recent times that you completely forget there is a jobs crisis atm.

There is still lots of room improvement ofcourse, e.g. job/population growth.

Yeah certainly there are more positive signs in the last couple of years. Lets hope it continues

Some of the data coming out of Perth is really poor.

House price growth is negative.
Auction clearance rates are around 35 - 40% compared to 65 - 70% here in SA.
It would take a brave investor to buy property in Perth.

ghs wrote:It would take a brave investor to buy property in Perth.

Quite the contrary. It is a great time to buy in Perth. Prices in Perth 18 months ago were almost pushing Melbourne and Sydney and outstripping growth in both those markets. It was completely unsustainable. Prices have fallen to more sustainable affordable levels, and may fall a bit more, but comparing the last even 5 years of growth in Perth to Adelaide shows a better picture. There is still a large number of millionaires, and billionaires enjoying their riverside lives in the Western suburbs of Perth insulated from the downturn and helping the local economy and arts with philanthropy. Despite the boom and bust cycle, the population is still growing and due to the time difference alone, head offices are still required to have a presence in Perth with most insurance companies, banks and finance, mining companies and associated service industries still employing thousands here, despite some layoffs. Logistics and warehousing is also huge here, as things can not be just trucked in overnight from Melbourne.

ghs wrote:Some of the data coming out of Perth is really poor.

House price growth is negative.
Auction clearance rates are around 35 - 40% compared to 65 - 70% here in SA.
It would take a brave investor to buy property in Perth.

Exactly. But the brave ones are nearly always the smartest ones too. It's no secret that the best time to buy
an investment property is during a downturn, rather than get swept up in sentiment while the going is good.
The real skill is trying to pick the closest time to when it bottoms out.

Also, property should be seen as a medium to long term type of investment, there would be some good bargains in
Perth right now for the astute investor.