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monotonehell wrote:

koalaboy wrote:I think they should get rid of ticketing all together and make it free. That would make it more efficient and more attractive to use. It would be sort of like an reverse-toll for road users. Everyone pays for the public transport in state taxes, but it becomes a personal choice not to use it. What many don't realise is that they are already paying for the public transport they don't use. I think about 1/5th of the operating cost is covered by the ticket, while the remaining 4/5th comes from every tax payer. No ticketing would save money on ticket machines, enforcement and improved access and egress efficiency. It might take some pressure off of the road network.

In theory it's a good idea, but without a cost on a trip people start to view it to be worth nothing. That leads to all kinds of unhelpful attitudes toward it. It's a 'people are messed up, psychological' thing...

It seems to work on the tram to/from the Entertainment Centre. People are happy to drive (out of their way in some cases i know of) to the EntCent in order to use the free public transport to and from the city.

rhino wrote:

monotonehell wrote:

koalaboy wrote:I think they should get rid of ticketing all together and make it free. That would make it more efficient and more attractive to use. It would be sort of like an reverse-toll for road users. Everyone pays for the public transport in state taxes, but it becomes a personal choice not to use it. What many don't realise is that they are already paying for the public transport they don't use. I think about 1/5th of the operating cost is covered by the ticket, while the remaining 4/5th comes from every tax payer. No ticketing would save money on ticket machines, enforcement and improved access and egress efficiency. It might take some pressure off of the road network.

In theory it's a good idea, but without a cost on a trip people start to view it to be worth nothing. That leads to all kinds of unhelpful attitudes toward it. It's a 'people are messed up, psychological' thing...

It seems to work on the tram to/from the Entertainment Centre. People are happy to drive (out of their way in some cases i know of) to the EntCent in order to use the free public transport to and from the city.

Isolated example does not extrapolate to entire system. It's not really free is it? They pay for parking.

monotonehell wrote:Isolated example does not extrapolate to entire system. It's not really free is it? They pay for parking.

Come on now Mono - are you saying that if the parking was free they wouldn't be using the system?

Out of interest, who owns the carpark, and who gets the parking fees? Are the parking fees accepted by DTEI as tramfares?

rhino wrote:

monotonehell wrote:Isolated example does not extrapolate to entire system. It's not really free is it? They pay for parking.

Come on now Mono - are you saying that if the parking was free they wouldn't be using the system?

Out of interest, who owns the carpark, and who gets the parking fees? Are the parking fees accepted by DTEI as tramfares?

The car park is property of the Adelaide Entertainment Centre, and they receive the fees from parking.

monotonehell wrote:In theory it's a good idea, but without a cost on a trip people start to view it to be worth nothing. That leads to all kinds of unhelpful attitudes toward it. It's a 'people are messed up, psychological' thing...

Not to stereotype (but I will)... I would have assumed that the people that currently don't respect public transport are those on concession tickets or not paying at all because they have no respect for the law anyway. I know of many people (well-behaved citizens), that don't want to use PT because they are unsure about the ticketing and it is all too scary.

Compared to parking costs in the city, the tickets are not enticing enough, particularly with 2 or more adults in the car. If they halved the price, I would accept the 20 minute extra PT travel time each way for the cost saving. But to park for $11 compared to $12 in multitrip fares (2pax x 2), where is the incentive. I have far more flexibility with my car and I save at least 3 hours a week in travel time. Alternate solution, jack up parking costs or create faster PT and I will change my behaviour.

AG wrote:

rhino wrote:

monotonehell wrote:Isolated example does not extrapolate to entire system. It's not really free is it? They pay for parking.

Come on now Mono - are you saying that if the parking was free they wouldn't be using the system?

Out of interest, who owns the carpark, and who gets the parking fees? Are the parking fees accepted by DTEI as tramfares?

The car park is property of the Adelaide Entertainment Centre, and they receive the fees from parking.

Thought so, but who owns the EntCent?

rhino wrote:
Thought so, but who owns the EntCent?

The SA Government.

The only option I can see is to remove some of the load from Grenfell/Currie St to be able to add bus only lanes. Basically I reckon Grenfell/Currie St should become one way for normal traffic only and also make Pirie/Waymouth Street one way in the opposite direction. I was thinking that Currie St could remain 2 way from Light Sq to West Tce, so that one way traffic flowing west on Waymouth St could go around the square and join Currie St to aid flow into the underpass through the parklands to Henley Beach Rd.

Current Grenfell/Currie set-up (roughly)
| A1 : A2 : A3 | A4 : A5 : A6 |

A1 - bus stops, carparking and left turn lane
A2 - east bound traffic, normally gridlocked with bus traffic
A3 - east bound traffic
A4 - west bound traffic
A5 - west bound traffic, normally gridlocked with bus traffic
A6 - bus stops, carparking, taxi rank and lleft turn lane


Proposed "one-way" solution
| B1 : B2 | B3 : B4 | B5 : B6 |

B1 - bus stops
B2 - east bound bus traffic only
B3 - east bound traffic (no buses)
B4 - east bound traffic (no buses)
B5 - west bound bus traffic only
B6 - bus stops

The solution above certainly would have a few challenges, one being how traffic in lane B3 would be able to turn left across the bus lane.

I dunno, just a thought... and one I wanted to get out of my head and onto screen!

Or you could put the bus lanes next to each other on the southern half of Grenfell Street which would then require moving some bus stops to the middle of the road (for east bound buses), which removes the left turn issue for regular road traffic, but then creates a bus stop accessibility issue. This discussion really belongs in the Visions forum, and I'm sure AtD already has a thread about this!

koalaboy wrote:

monotonehell wrote:In theory it's a good idea, but without a cost on a trip people start to view it to be worth nothing. That leads to all kinds of unhelpful attitudes toward it. It's a 'people are messed up, psychological' thing...

Not to stereotype (but I will)... I would have assumed that the people that currently don't respect public transport are those on concession tickets or not paying at all because they have no respect for the law anyway. I know of many people (well-behaved citizens), that don't want to use PT because they are unsure about the ticketing and it is all too scary.

Compared to parking costs in the city, the tickets are not enticing enough, particularly with 2 or more adults in the car. If they halved the price, I would accept the 20 minute extra PT travel time each way for the cost saving. But to park for $11 compared to $12 in multitrip fares (2pax x 2), where is the incentive. I have far more flexibility with my car and I save at least 3 hours a week in travel time. Alternate solution, jack up parking costs or create faster PT and I will change my behaviour.

I'm not saying that fares shouldn't be cheaper. But there needs to be a small cost associated with use so that the system isn't abused in a manner of ways. There needs to be a small opportunity cost to PT to regulate demand. Free fares would see demand skyrocket beyond what the govt can afford to provide -- induced demand doesn't only apply to the roads. There needs to be a cost to use as a barrier to those who would cause mischief or other anti-social behaviour.

Fares could be cheaper, but they need to be set at a point that causes people to think:

monotonehell wrote: I'm not saying that fares shouldn't be cheaper. But there needs to be a small cost associated with use so that the system isn't abused in a manner of ways. There needs to be a small opportunity cost to PT to regulate demand. Free fares would see demand skyrocket beyond what the govt can afford to provide -- induced demand doesn't only apply to the roads.

There would be induced demand, but it wouldn't skyrocket beyond what the government can afford to provide. The problem is it could exceed what they're willing to provide. You only have to look at the trams to see how demand often exceeds supply already.

There needs to be a cost to use as a barrier to those who would cause mischief or other anti-social behaviour.

That is a valid point, but there are other measures like CCTV that can be more effective in deterring anti social behaviour.

Aidan wrote:That is a valid point, but there are other measures like CCTV that can be more effective in deterring anti social behaviour.

CCTV in trains has already proven to fail to stop the windows being scratched up. It would probably be better to have preventative measures than post-event consequences.

Norman wrote:

Aidan wrote:That is a valid point, but there are other measures like CCTV that can be more effective in deterring anti social behaviour.

CCTV in trains has already proven to fail to stop the windows being scratched up. It would probably be better to have preventative measures than post-event consequences.

I agree. But charging for tickets has also proven to fail to stop the windows being scratched up. My point is it's only one measure of many, and we don't need every single one of them.

I like the ticket system in Japan.

you get on in two sets of doors - not just the front door and you simply throw the fare in a ticket machine when you hop on and it spits out the ticket

the obviously have big signs saying correct change only but that is hardly a difficult thing to do.

saying that in Japan it appeared the majority of the bueses were only used to get to the train system.

I remember seeing in a movie a wall that spray painted kids who vandalised it (Naked Gun?). Maybe something like that could be invented somehow.