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Heardy_101 wrote:

Aidan wrote:Not even Melbourne does. And aside from the main disadvantage of trams (the infrastructure cost), buses are less disruptive on busy roads than trams, and cheaper to operate on lightly loaded routes.

Actually, from my last visit to Melbourne, and this is only an observation, a vast majority of Bus services didn't go to the city, they terminate at Railway Stations/Termini, and Tram Termini. While there are quite a few Bus services that do terminate in the Melbourne CBD, they are are only a majority.

That because Melbourne (mostly) does this:

monotonehell wrote:...I favour trams as a short journey, hop on hop off service for the inner, higher density suburbs and CBD. In my opinion the Glenelg line is too far by a short way, for this reason I call it a "Traim"
Trains should be for longer haul linear journeys connecting suburban centres. Stops should not be as frequent as we have on our lines. Trams or buses should run feeder services or cross connections. And buses should service sprawl (sprawl should be discouraged).

Melbourne's concept is a very good one because it gives us the best idea of what a city looks like that retained it's almost ill-fated Tram network. (Sydney has learnt the hard way, as is Adelaide, in fact, most Australian cities are!)

Trams are the best solution for an inner-suburban Transport network, with buses providing the outer-suburban services. Heavy Rail, meanwhile, is the best of both worlds, and where heavy rail can't be applied or built then the above two options are obviously looked at.

Hence why I would have a mostly restored Adelaide Tram Network replacing most of the inner-suburban bus routes. That is, in my perfect world . These include, in clockwise order from the NW Suburbs:

Cheltenham/St. Clair (Torrens Road)
Blair Athol/Enfield/Prospect (Prospect Road, via North Adelaide)
Oakden/Walkerville (North East Road then Fosters Road)
Magill (Magill Road)
Norwood/Kesington Gardens (The Parade)
Erindale/Kesington/Toorak Gardens (Kesington Road)
Burnside/Hazelwood Park (Greenhill Road)
Springfield (Fullarton Road)
Unley/Unley Park/Hawthorn (Unley Road/Belair Road)
Hyde Park (King William Road)
Colonel Light Gardens (Goodwood Road)
Richmond (Richmond Road via Anzac Highway and West Terrace)
West Beach (Sir Donald Bradman Drive/Burbridge Road)
Henley Beach (Henley Beach Road)

Feel Free to add others to that list.

Heardy_101 wrote:Melbourne's concept is a very good one because it gives us the best idea of what a city looks like that retained it's almost ill-fated Tram network. (Sydney has learnt the hard way, as is Adelaide, in fact, most Australian cities are!)

Yes, it's one thing melbourne's done right.

Trams are the best solution for an inner-suburban Transport network, with buses providing the outer-suburban services. Heavy Rail, meanwhile, is the best of both worlds, and where heavy rail can't be applied or built then the above two options are obviously looked at.

It's more complicated than that. Different modes have different characteristics of speed, capacity, comfort, cost, disruption, operating frequency and coverage,among other things. What's good for long journeys may not be good for short ones.

Hence why I would have a mostly restored Adelaide Tram Network replacing most of the inner-suburban bus routes. That is, in my perfect world .

Your perfect world is nothing of the sort. Replacing half bus routes with trams is not an improvement - it's a mistake Melbourne's managed to avoid!

BTW I notice your list fails to include Morphett Road, which (considering it has a tram depot and not a huge amount of traffic) seems quite surprising. Any particular reason?

Aidan wrote:Your perfect world is nothing of the sort. Replacing half bus routes with trams is not an improvement - it's a mistake Melbourne's managed to avoid!

What I meant to say was, at least Melbourne don't have all 3 modes of Transport competing against one another. Or a Tram and a Bus doing the exact same route at the exact same times. Eg, why have a G10 as well as a Tram to Blair Athol (up Prospect Road). Or why have a 3 different bus routes go down Henley Beach Road as well as the Tram?

Aidan wrote:BTW I notice your list fails to include Morphett Road, which (considering it has a tram depot and not a huge amount of traffic) seems quite surprising. Any particular reason?

Yo do raise a good point. One could have the Tram from from Oaklands or Westfield Marion then connect at the Glenelg Line.

Heardy_101 wrote:

Aidan wrote:Your perfect world is nothing of the sort. Replacing half bus routes with trams is not an improvement - it's a mistake Melbourne's managed to avoid!

What I meant to say was, at least Melbourne don't have all 3 modes of Transport competing against one another. Or a Tram and a Bus doing the exact same route at the exact same times. Eg, why have a G10 as well as a Tram to Blair Athol.

They sure do have competing services... such as the Epping line and the tram along High Street. Same with Coburg as well.

Very true, didn't consider those.

Heardy_101 wrote:Very true, didn't consider those.

A little redundency is not a bad idea, buses are always used to back up trains when trains have a problem. Some choice isn't a bad thing.

Heardy_101 wrote:

Aidan wrote:Your perfect world is nothing of the sort. Replacing half bus routes with trams is not an improvement - it's a mistake Melbourne's managed to avoid!

What I meant to say was, at least Melbourne don't have all 3 modes of Transport competing against one another. Or a Tram and a Bus doing the exact same route at the exact same times. Eg, why have a G10 as well as a Tram to Blair Athol (up Prospect Road). Or why have a 3 different bus routes go down Henley Beach Road as well as the Tram?

I wouldn't put trams on Henley Beach Road until our inner suburban tram network is very well developed, and possibly not even then. And I don't think anyones suggesting continuing to run buses up Prospect Road once it has a tram service.

I'm glad you realise having trams and buses running the same way makes no sense. Keeping that in mind, do you really want trams on King William Road that only go as far as Hyde Park? Or Goodwood Road only as far as Colonel Light Gardens?

I wouldn't put trams on Henley Beach Road until our inner suburban tram network is very well developed, and possibly not even then. And I don't think anyones suggesting continuing to run buses up Prospect Road once it has a tram service.

I don't see why not. It's relatively simple to branch off the West Tce terminus, down West Terrace then onto Henley Beach Road, then onto Seaview Road, terminating at Henley Square. It's exactly where the old line used to run, except the Trams used to run on a viaduct where HMAS Australia Drive is now, and except where it turns onto HB Road from the City End (I think it ran straight to KW Street along Currie Street)

With Prospect Road I was using an example.

I'm glad you realise having trams and buses running the same way makes no sense. Keeping that in mind, do you really want trams on King William Road that only go as far as Hyde Park? Or Goodwood Road only as far as Colonel Light Gardens?

Yes.

Both of those are former routes.

Hyde Park I think went through the reserve/park at the end of King William Road and terminated next to Cross Road, and the Colonel Light Gardens tram used to have it's own reserve next to Goodwood Road, except for the underpass under the Railway.

Heardy_101 wrote:

I wouldn't put trams on Henley Beach Road until our inner suburban tram network is very well developed, and possibly not even then. And I don't think anyones suggesting continuing to run buses up Prospect Road once it has a tram service.

I don't see why not. It's relatively simple to branch off the West Tce terminus, down West Terrace then onto Henley Beach Road, then onto Seaview Road, terminating at Henley Square. It's exactly where the old line used to run, except the Trams used to run on a viaduct where HMAS Australia Drive is now, and except where it turns onto HB Road from the City End (I think it ran straight to KW Street along Currie Street)

The existing setup is very well suited to buses (including a bus lane through the underpass) and is the basis for multiple bus routes). Unless they're all converted to tramways, there would be buses running concurrently with trams over a substantial stretch of the road.

With Prospect Road I was using an example.

Yes you were - but why do you bother giving examples if you're going to ignore them?

I'm glad you realise having trams and buses running the same way makes no sense. Keeping that in mind, do you really want trams on King William Road that only go as far as Hyde Park? Or Goodwood Road only as far as Colonel Light Gardens?

Yes.

Both of those are former routes.

I'm aware of that. But if recreating past glories is your priority, why did you leave Hawker Street off your list?

Hyde Park I think went through the reserve/park at the end of King William Road and terminated next to Cross Road, and the Colonel Light Gardens tram used to have it's own reserve next to Goodwood Road, except for the underpass under the Railway.

So what? It doesn't any more! Conditions have changed a lot since then. Suburbia has sprawled, and there are more significant destinations other than the City. The existing bus routes take advantage of this.

monotonehell wrote:Also remember to factor in the fact that passengers hate to transfer vehicles. Door to door services are better patronised than connecting services. Perceived problems like missing a connection or delays while waiting for a connection put people off. But of course you need the passenger numbers to get a door to door service to be worth it. PT is chicken and egg sometimes, because of this feeder services can be hard to get going.

Single seat journeys is a peculiarity of Adelaide. All other mainland capitals have developed their rail systems to complement local bus services which serve interchanges.It keeps large amounts of busses off freeways, main roads and city streets. It astounds me that people would preferr to sit on a bus from the outer suburbs than transferr to an express train service as is the case here in Adelaide. Part of the problem here is the unreliability of the train service and connections and frequency. Also there are too many stations on our train lines.

claybro wrote:

monotonehell wrote:Also remember to factor in the fact that passengers hate to transfer vehicles. Door to door services are better patronised than connecting services. Perceived problems like missing a connection or delays while waiting for a connection put people off. But of course you need the passenger numbers to get a door to door service to be worth it. PT is chicken and egg sometimes, because of this feeder services can be hard to get going.

Single seat journeys is a peculiarity of Adelaide. All other mainland capitals have developed their rail systems to complement local bus services which serve interchanges.It keeps large amounts of busses off freeways, main roads and city streets. It astounds me that people would preferr to sit on a bus from the outer suburbs than transferr to an express train service as is the case here in Adelaide. Part of the problem here is the unreliability of the train service and connections and frequency. Also there are too many stations on our train lines.

Single seat journeys are not a peculiarity of Adelaide, and Adelaide has plenty of feeder buses in the outer suburbs. But other Australian cities have multiple train stations in their CBDs, while Adelaide only has one station on the edge of its CBD. So for many people the choice is between a one seat ride and a three seat ride.

Agree Aidan that the situation of our one solitary CBD station on the edge of the city is a huge drawback here. In fact I believe it holds back developement in the CBD. Another problem is the lack of suburban interchanges/park and rides. We simply do not embrace them here, and our train system is not developed enough with high enough frequency for them to be successful at this stage. Transferring from bus to train is not really and option here. It is for this reason that most Adelaide commuters would preferr to sit for over an hour on an outer suburban bus route into the CBD rather than transferr to a train and the reason our CBD is so choked with buses.

Living in Melbourne now.

On an generalized overview.

V-Line operate all region train services - all diesel.
Metro Trains operate all metropolitan lines - all electric.
Buses operate mostly in outer-suburban areas feeding commuters from areas not serviced by train or tram to appropriate train/tram stations which will take commuters into the city. Most buses are city bound but take approximately two hours to do a full run from one side of the city to the other. Usually a bus route will stop at all stations along a train-line - again, picking people up from areas un-serviced by rail and bringing them to trains which is a faster alternative to get into the city.

Trams service the inner suburbia, doing similar to buses (practically buses on a track); connecting with the faster train alternative. I know of only two trams that venture into the Zone 2 region which is generalized as the outer suburbs of Melbourne - one of which is the 109 to Box Hill.

The Yarra Trams have a station platform program where they're re-building a majority of their stations to become more wheelchair friendly. Not all stations are being re-built, only the majors. Most stations just remain ground level with heavy-duty fencing or the standard stop at the traffic lights where the tram halts and people walk from the side-walk onto the tram.

Someone mentioned that the Glenelg tram-line is too long and is a traim line. Not necessarily too long. In the late 80's both the Port Melbourne and St. Kilda train lines were converted to become tram-lines (96 - Brunswick-St. Kilda and 109 - Box Hill-Port Melbourne). As as they're referred to in Melbourne; the 'Light Rail' lines (because they operate mostly off road along the old train causeway), the trams are exactly the same as the former Spanish tram fleet Adelaide currently have; bigger, longer and faster than the standard one carriage trams Melbourne is renowned for.

One last point, Melbourne's train system is quite cool! When Melbourne sprawls the Metro train network is extended.. For example: the Epping line, is now the South Morang line; Epping and beyond was serviced by V-Line trains until they electrified the line between Epping and South Morang, making SM the last Metro train station for that line. The beauty of having regional lines.

Pretty sure the South Morang line extension is a completely new track, not ex-V/Line track.