News & Discussion: Trams

Threads relating to transport, water, etc. within the CBD and Metropolitan area.
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SBD
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3466 Post by SBD » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:56 pm

rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:16 pm

As for the business case. Well, according to the official report to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, the North Terrace extension had a benefit to cost ratio of only 0.7. The extension to North Adelaide is costing lots more per kilometre, so, you do the math.

Then, the incoming government has stated that it will only do the extension to North Adelaide if the business case stacks up.

So, do you think that a business case with a benefit to cost ratio of less than 0.7 stacks up? Realistically?

If there's to be the smallest chance of a tram to North Adelaide in the next four years, you have to boost the benefit and reduce the cost. If that doesn't happen, there's no extension. I don’t see it happening, because nobody is even trying to improve the design to make it economic. Nobody here, nobody in government, nobody in the public service, and the general public don't care all that much. Personally, I think it could be done, but nobody is interested in trying, so...shrug. Too bad, so sad.
A tall residential tower (with a near-top-floor bar/restaurant open to the public) on the Le Cornu site would benefit from the tram, and the tram would receive patronage from the tower - makes them both look like better business propositions, and might attract more to North Adelaide as well.

Whether the extension destination should continue to be Prospect, or turn left and extend onto the Bowden development could be another issue worthy of consideration. Either extension requires crossing the inner ring route somehow.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3467 Post by citywatcher » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:43 pm

rubberman wrote:
citywatcher wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:31 pm
rubberman wrote: One single example. In hard figures, the O Bahn tunnel was estimated to have a benefit justifying $160m.

Those places in Europe I mentioned all use combined bus/tram lanes in places. So, if the stretch from North Terrace to the Entertainment Centre had been designed with that in mind, the delays for Port and Grange Road buses could have been cut by a similar amount. By.Doing.What.They.Do.In.Europe.

That's $160m in benefits blown down the toilet.

How much would a review by an operator from Prague or Warsaw cost? $200k? $300k?

But nah. Let's just blow the whole cost of the extension down the toilet because we possibly couldn't learn anything from anyone outside Australia.

When people see this cavalier attitude to their money, Mr Marshall's slogans of "Labor's Waste and Mismanagement" ring true. People might not get the detail of cases like this, but if they get up on election Saturdays all grumpy because they spent 15 useless minutes getting from North Terrace to Manton Street, guess who they take it out on...and rightly so.

Labor blew $160m in benefits by not spending a few hundred thousand on getting in the right expertise. If Labor supporters hand wave that away, then Mr Marshall will get a second term. (Not to imply you are a Labor supporter, rather that this is precisely the sort of big ticket item that could have been a big benefit to the previous government, and they blew it through wilful ignorance).
Usual horseshit post

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Usual intelligent response. :hilarious:
All that drivel deserved

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Norman
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3468 Post by Norman » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:19 pm

rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:09 pm
Those places in Europe I mentioned all use combined bus/tram lanes in places. So, if the stretch from North Terrace to the Entertainment Centre had been designed with that in mind, the delays for Port and Grange Road buses could have been cut by a similar amount. By.Doing.What.They.Do.In.Europe.

That's $160m in benefits blown down the toilet.
I doubt any benefit will be even close to $160m. You can't compare a corridor of a tram running every 5-10 minutes and a bus route running every 7-8 minutes with a bus corridor that had a bus going through every 45 seconds.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3469 Post by 1NEEDS2POST » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:32 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:56 pm
Whether the extension destination should continue to be Prospect, or turn left and extend onto the Bowden development could be another issue worthy of consideration. Either extension requires crossing the inner ring route somehow.
Turning into Bowden also opens up the possibility of connecting to the Entertainment Centre tram stop. I'm not normally a fan of loops (because people don't want to travel in circles), but this is connecting a high density area. The north-eastern part of the development is not well serviced by public transport at the moment.

So we will be back to one tram route, but it folds back on itself. Glenelg -> North Adelaide -> Bowden -> Entertainment Centre -> Botanic Garden. Also, the tram will run near Ovingham Railway Station, so we can eliminate that station, speeding up the Gawler line.

The ring route is the only road that looks wide enough to have dedicated tram lanes. Main North Road might be capable too, Prospect Road probably no.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3470 Post by ml69 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:12 pm

SBD wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:56 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:16 pm

As for the business case. Well, according to the official report to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, the North Terrace extension had a benefit to cost ratio of only 0.7. The extension to North Adelaide is costing lots more per kilometre, so, you do the math.

Then, the incoming government has stated that it will only do the extension to North Adelaide if the business case stacks up.

So, do you think that a business case with a benefit to cost ratio of less than 0.7 stacks up? Realistically?

If there's to be the smallest chance of a tram to North Adelaide in the next four years, you have to boost the benefit and reduce the cost. If that doesn't happen, there's no extension. I don’t see it happening, because nobody is even trying to improve the design to make it economic. Nobody here, nobody in government, nobody in the public service, and the general public don't care all that much. Personally, I think it could be done, but nobody is interested in trying, so...shrug. Too bad, so sad.
A tall residential tower (with a near-top-floor bar/restaurant open to the public) on the Le Cornu site would benefit from the tram, and the tram would receive patronage from the tower - makes them both look like better business propositions, and might attract more to North Adelaide as well.

Whether the extension destination should continue to be Prospect, or turn left and extend onto the Bowden development could be another issue worthy of consideration. Either extension requires crossing the inner ring route somehow.
Completing a CBD loop tram linking the East End, Central Market and new RAH precinct will be much more useful for the majority than an extension up through North Adelaide.

A CBD loop will spur far, far more private apartment development than a North Adelaide extension, where any proposals exceeding 5-6 storeys are likely to get howled down in protest.

A North Adelaide extension can be considered AFTER the CBD loop has been completed.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3471 Post by rev » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:26 am

rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:16 pm
rev wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:44 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:23 pm


Get rid of the Citadis and replace them with these. I'd be happy with that. Ta-ra-bombardier!

Sell the Citadis to Sydney. Cackle, cackle. Hehehe.

Only a slight problem in that Bombardier are pretty slow in producing them. Oh, and are they the right width?
Ta-ra bombardier? The E6000 is a flexity tram built by Bombardier.
The Citadis, the trams we got from Spain, are built by Alstom.
Both tram networks use the same standard gauge 1,435 mm track apparently. One of our flexitys even did trial runs on the Melbourne network.


Moving on...looking at the stats, to anyone who says there is no business case for more trams, to quote my biggest fan on here, "pull your head in"...in the 2016/17 financial year our little tram line had 9.26 million passengers. Not bad for a city of 1.3 million. Imagine if kept the our extensive tram network from the 1950's what the patronage would be with an updated modern fleet of trams and upgraded tram stops across the network. For the same period Melbourne's network had 204 million passengers.
When I said Ta-ra-Bombardier, I was referring to Bombardier replacing the Citadis, lol. :applause:

And yeah, I do know the gauges are the same... :hilarious: ...It was the body width I was not sure about. :cheers:

As for the business case. Well, according to the official report to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works, the North Terrace extension had a benefit to cost ratio of only 0.7. The extension to North Adelaide is costing lots more per kilometre, so, you do the math.

Then, the incoming government has stated that it will only do the extension to North Adelaide if the business case stacks up.

So, do you think that a business case with a benefit to cost ratio of less than 0.7 stacks up? Realistically?

If there's to be the smallest chance of a tram to North Adelaide in the next four years, you have to boost the benefit and reduce the cost. If that doesn't happen, there's no extension. I don’t see it happening, because nobody is even trying to improve the design to make it economic. Nobody here, nobody in government, nobody in the public service, and the general public don't care all that much. Personally, I think it could be done, but nobody is interested in trying, so...shrug. Too bad, so sad.

LOL my bad then.

Width seems to be fine. The citadis are apparently 2.65m, same as the E6000 Flexity. Our Flexitys are 2.4m wide.
Only issue I assume would be where the doors are in relation to the length of our tram stops?

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3472 Post by rubberman » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:33 am

Norman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:19 pm
rubberman wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:09 pm
Those places in Europe I mentioned all use combined bus/tram lanes in places. So, if the stretch from North Terrace to the Entertainment Centre had been designed with that in mind, the delays for Port and Grange Road buses could have been cut by a similar amount. By.Doing.What.They.Do.In.Europe.

That's $160m in benefits blown down the toilet.
I doubt any benefit will be even close to $160m. You can't compare a corridor of a tram running every 5-10 minutes and a bus route running every 7-8 minutes with a bus corridor that had a bus going through every 45 seconds.
Well, by all means come up with your own figure. However, please don't tell me there's zero benefit to a big reduction in travel time for the Port Road and Manton Street services. Plus, getting those buses off Port Road making it easier for motorists.

The government has said that it's only going to support trams if there's a business case.

I've suggested a few things that might tip the scale. Do you have any ideas? I'd be happy to hear them.

Personally, I think the only way that the North Adelaide extension can work is to get the costs down. As it is, we can kiss it goodbye. It's way too expensive.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3473 Post by timtam20292 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:36 pm

Latest update:
Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project whilst driver training continues.

Works scheduled over the weekend include:

General re-instatement works, Friday 11:30pm – 6am and Sunday 7:30pm – 6am
Minor concrete kerbs works will be undertaken in the east end of North Terrace, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night.
Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works. Lanes adjacent tram stops will be closed while works are undertaken, with one lane maintained in each direction. Access to businesses and properties will be maintained.

A further update will be provided next week.

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email [email protected].

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3474 Post by citywatcher » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:54 pm

timtam20292 wrote:Latest update:
Dear Stakeholder

Thank you for your continued patience and ongoing interest in the City Tram Extension Project whilst driver training continues.

Works scheduled over the weekend include:

General re-instatement works, Friday 11:30pm – 6am and Sunday 7:30pm – 6am
Minor concrete kerbs works will be undertaken in the east end of North Terrace, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday night.
Some speed and lane restrictions will apply in the vicinity of the works. Lanes adjacent tram stops will be closed while works are undertaken, with one lane maintained in each direction. Access to businesses and properties will be maintained.

A further update will be provided next week.

For more information on the City Tram Extension Project please visit www.citytramextension.sa.gov.au, call the enquiry line on 1300 030 919 or email [email protected].

Regards

Stakeholder and Community Engagement Team
Those damn kerbing works
Like building the great wall of China

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3475 Post by rubberman » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:36 pm

Testing continuing. Nice to see trams passing in North Terrace.
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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3476 Post by Nort » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:40 am

So it's just been leaked that one of the unannounced infrastructure projects in the Federal budget is 185 million for the Adelink project.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victo ... 593043a086

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3477 Post by rubberman » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:46 am

Nort wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:40 am
So it's just been leaked that one of the unannounced infrastructure projects in the Federal budget is 185 million for the Adelink project.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victo ... 593043a086

It's paywalled. Can you give us an idea of the specifics. For example, is that the total cost (SA Gov plus Feds), or just the Feds contribution? Is it for North Adelaide or the City loop, or something else?

Also, note that if it's an election promise war chest, an incoming government doesn't have to honour it. Take a look at the polls.

It would be ironic if an ALP government promising trams got booted out in SA, and a Liberal Government promising trams got booted out in Canberra.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3478 Post by Nathan » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:47 am

Malcolm Turnbull’s re-election plan revealed

AN explosive leak has revealed Malcolm Turnbull personally ticked off on a massive $7.6 billion roads and rail package aimed at saving marginal seats across the country as part of his re-election blueprint.

The detailed list, leaked to the Herald Sun just days after new Prime Minister Scott Morrison took office, reveals secretly approved infrastructure projects were included in May’s Budget for the Coalition to one-by-one unveil in the lead-up to the next election.

The fresh leak threatens to inflame already bitter divisions within the government.

Under internal pressure over the issue since last year, Mr Turnbull oversaw a strategic development of 10 major projects that are fully funded and listed in the most recent Budget under “decisions taken but not yet announced”.

Image

About $1.6 billion will be poured into key Queensland battlegrounds aimed at saving MPs including George Christensen, Luke Howarth, Michelle Landry and Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton — the man who brought on the leadership challenge that ousted Mr Turnbull.

But Victoria will only receive $150 million, earmarked for Liberal MP Sarah Henderson’s Geelong seat of Corangamite.

The leaked list will likely now deny Mr Morrison and his infrastructure minister, deputy PM Michael McCormack, of half a dozen strategic “good news” stories in media outlets across four states in the coming months.

Among the major projects is $1.5 billion towards early planning and pre-construction of a high-speed rail network along the east coast, with priority on linking Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney and Newcastle.

More than $3 billion will also be poured into a host of Western Sydney seats as part of a north-south rail link to create hundreds of jobs and provide a major transport link between the North West, Western Sydney Airport major south west growth areas.

It’s understood the announcement will be made in conjunction with the NSW Government ahead of its re-election campaign when it goes to the polls early next year.

A senior Liberal source said: ”others will no doubt claim this stuff as their own but Malcolm had already funded this stuff in the Budget. We were doing it.”

“These MPs knew very this stuff was coming yet — and that it had been fully paid for — yet they were still agitating publicly about it.”

Also among the projects is a $1.2 billion for Adelaide’s north-south corridor project which will upgrade a major thoroughfare to cope with the projected number of vehicles and size of freight carriers.

Geelong, which includes Victoria’s most marginal seat of Corangamite, will also gain $150 million under Commonwealth Cities Deal while Darwin will gain $100 million under the same fund.

Infrastructure and Transport Minister Michael McCormack last night told the Herald Sun the government would “continue to invest in infrastructure priorities to make sure Australians make it to their destination sooner and safer”.

As Mr Turnbull’s treasurer, Mr Morrison formed part of the economic review committee which was consulted and approved the package.

The new PM has appointed Victorian MP Alan Tudge as the “minister for congesting busting” who had taken the cities and population portfolio.

The Herald Sun understands the federal government remains willing to add potentially billions of dollars to the federal contribution to building the North East Link, as well as the controversial East West Link, which depends on the outcome of November’s state election.

Victoria had been promised $1.75 billion by Mr Turnbull to build the “missing link” in the Metropolitan Ring Road, on top of a longstanding $3 billion federal commitment to East West.

Mr Dutton, who failed in his attempt to seize the leadership despite forcing a leadership spill, cited regional infrastructure and a reduction in annual migrant intake as part of his reason.

“We need to allow our infrastructure to catch up. We (also) need to rebuild many of our rural towns who are suffering,” he told 3AW.

Labor’s infrastructure spokesman Anthony Albanese said it was a case of “too little too late” in the lead-up to an election when “they are desperate to hide their failures”.

The Opposition has committed to four of the projects, in Mackay, Carseldine and Rockhampton, and pledge about $3 billion towards the Western Sydney north-south rail link.

“Because of the Coalition’s cuts, traffic congestion in Australian cities has worsened under its watch to the point that it is undermining the economy and damaging Australians’ quality of life.”

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3479 Post by how good is he » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:58 am

So I gather it will chosen on the route/s with the best cost/benefit outcome but my guess is this could help fund the city loop and an extension to AO and possibly North Adelaide?
Last edited by how good is he on Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: News & Discussion: Trams

#3480 Post by Nort » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:07 am

rubberman wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:46 am
Nort wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:40 am
So it's just been leaked that one of the unannounced infrastructure projects in the Federal budget is 185 million for the Adelink project.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victo ... 593043a086

It's paywalled. Can you give us an idea of the specifics. For example, is that the total cost (SA Gov plus Feds), or just the Feds contribution? Is it for North Adelaide or the City loop, or something else?

Also, note that if it's an election promise war chest, an incoming government doesn't have to honour it. Take a look at the polls.

It would be ironic if an ALP government promising trams got booted out in SA, and a Liberal Government promising trams got booted out in Canberra.
Nathan beat me to quoting the article, but not a lot more information was provided. The important part seems to be that these were already actually funded in this years Federal budget and the announcements were just delayed.
how good is he wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:58 am
So I gather it will chosen on the route/s with the best cost/benefit outcome but my guess is $185m would fund the city loop and an extension to AO and possibly North Adelaide?
I very much doubt $185m would cover all of that, so I imagine it would be either a North Adelaide connection or part of the city loop.

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