Sensational-Adelaide.com

PeFe wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:43 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

Yes you have hit the issue on the head. Trams in the 1930's worked perfectly along the major arterial roads because 90% of Australians couldn't afford cars so the roads were nearly empty.

Fast forward to today and 90% of Adelaidians drive a motor car and the roads are significantly clogged up for the rush hours making street running trams a very slow transport option not really doing anything that a bus couldn't do.

Trams should be brought back for short journeys (like North Adelaide) or along dedicated right of ways where some sort of decent speed can be achieved.

Money would be better spent on upgrading the rail system (which can move large amounts of people very quickly regardless of traffic) and improving frequencies on the bus network ie a 10 minute service pattern on Go Zones and 20 minute service at night with all last buses leaving around midnight.

There's a couple of complications though. As it stands, it is even a problem for North Adelaide. I can't see how trams in O'Connell Street are feasible, given the plans to date. Single track as proposed by Council can't work, as trams entering that street have to wait until the tram at the terminus gets back. The alternative, used in Europe, of putting buses and trams on the same track and using side platforms is unknown in Adelaide.

Another complicating factor in the equation is urban consolidation. If, and that's a big "if", it occurs, then car transport is not viable. As you say, roads are crowded now. Put in three or four times more people in those areas, and cars to the city along those roads can't work either. That's when restrictions on cars plus trams actually work, because cars and buses cannot. However, that's the million dollar question. With current levels of immigration, something has to happen. If that something is urban fringe development, then, as you say, trains it is, with feeder buses to well spaced stations. If the option is urban consolidation, then trams in streets is the only way to go, because the street physically cannot cram enough cars in.

If it's the train option, then that also means the end of the existing practice of using trains for short station distances is a luxury for those lucky to live nearby, at the expense of people living in the outskirts. We can do that right now, but with high immigration, getting masses of people in from Gawler, Two Wells, Seaford etc is far more important than having that train with hundreds of passengers stop for one or two people every half kilometre.

Of course, all that might take years to work itself out. So, we'll stumble along for a while like we do now.

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

abc wrote:

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

Sitting in traffic, spending money on petrol and depreciation is never a convenient option.

abc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:38 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

Yes, it's not like cars are continually prioritised over alternative forms of transport. Oh, wait...

abc wrote:

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

I guess we should be asking why riding and PT was made so inconvenient for the masses to make car use more convenient.



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abc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:38 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

flat04 wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:04 am

How would peak hour traffic work down Unley Rd, Goody Rd or The Parade with fewer lanes for traffic when the majority of the journeys start from other areas?

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

There's been a few new apartment developments near the Parade. The Parade is already chock a block in the peak. The Parade isn't going to be widened. The alternatives are to not be able to use the Parade during peak hours, or move people rather than vehicles via trams. If you prefer to have almost no chance to get your car onto the Parade, or to have no cars and catch a tram to the city, which would you prefer if you were a resident. It's not the nasty government that's forcing the issue, it's people exercising their rights to build apartments close to the city and people exercising their rights to live there. If you can come up with some means of then getting those people to work in the CBD using cars, as is their right, without widening Norwood Parade, let's hear those ideas.

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:41 pm

abc wrote:

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:12 pm

The ideal outcome is a tram service and infrastructure would simultaneously encourage changes in travel behaviour and force driving to become less convenient. With a good service, this is highly possible.

Goodwood and Unley Roads in their present form should not be carrying the amount of traffic they do now.

this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

Sitting in traffic, spending money on petrol and depreciation is never a convenient option.

you'd spend more time waiting at a bus or tram stop than sitting in traffic... not to mention walking to/from the stop

obviously its convenient as its the option the masses prefer

abc wrote:

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:41 pm

abc wrote: this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

Sitting in traffic, spending money on petrol and depreciation is never a convenient option.

you'd spend more time waiting at a bus or tram stop than sitting in traffic... not to mention walking to/from the stop

obviously its convenient as its the option the masses prefer

Ok

abc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:29 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:41 pm

abc wrote:
this kind of attitude really grinds my gears

why would you force something to become less convenient to make a less convenient option viable...

this authoritarian mindset which goes against market forces applies to so many bad ideas

Sitting in traffic, spending money on petrol and depreciation is never a convenient option.

you'd spend more time waiting at a bus or tram stop than sitting in traffic... not to mention walking to/from the stop

obviously its convenient as its the option the masses prefer

We spend more time waiting at a stop than in traffic and have to walk large distances because public transport is at the absolutely back of the pecking order versus cars. Cars have been the biggest priority at the detriment of public transport in this state for a long time. I’m sure you already know this though.

I can't think of anywhere that's built new tram lines down existing throughfares like Prospect anytime recently. Sydney built along George Street but that is the exception. instead new lines are being built where trams can be separated from existing road traffic, similar to what was done along Port Road, or along KWS in the city. Otherwise even if the local residents and business owners agree to build in the first place, you end up spending a fortune on infrastructure that grinds to a halt anytime there's an accident between a tram and a vehicle. Look at Melbourne where trams run along main streets, and the average speeds are awful.

If Adelaide is to finally spend some money on PT infrastructure, at least make sure it achieves tangible benefits in moving large numbers of people around more quickly than is currently possible. For Prospect they should be looking at higher density along Churchill Road, and integrating existing bus services better with the train stations.

cocoiadrop wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:31 pm

abc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:29 pm

ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:41 pm

Sitting in traffic, spending money on petrol and depreciation is never a convenient option.

you'd spend more time waiting at a bus or tram stop than sitting in traffic... not to mention walking to/from the stop

obviously its convenient as its the option the masses prefer

We spend more time waiting at a stop than in traffic and have to walk large distances because public transport is at the absolutely back of the pecking order versus cars. Cars have been the biggest priority at the detriment of public transport in this state for a long time. I’m sure you already know this though.

the market has decided this, not for any conspiracy theory reason

abc wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:06 pm

cocoiadrop wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:31 pm

abc wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:29 pm

you'd spend more time waiting at a bus or tram stop than sitting in traffic... not to mention walking to/from the stop

obviously its convenient as its the option the masses prefer

We spend more time waiting at a stop than in traffic and have to walk large distances because public transport is at the absolutely back of the pecking order versus cars. Cars have been the biggest priority at the detriment of public transport in this state for a long time. I’m sure you already know this though.

the market has decided this, not for any conspiracy theory reason

Infrastructure spending and urban planning has decided it.

Nathan wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:09 pm

abc wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:06 pm

cocoiadrop wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:31 pm

We spend more time waiting at a stop than in traffic and have to walk large distances because public transport is at the absolutely back of the pecking order versus cars. Cars have been the biggest priority at the detriment of public transport in this state for a long time. I’m sure you already know this though.

the market has decided this, not for any conspiracy theory reason

Infrastructure spending and urban planning has decided it.

you mean suburban planning
the great Australian dream

would you prefer to live in a Chinese city?

abc wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:15 pm

Nathan wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:09 pm

abc wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:06 pm

the market has decided this, not for any conspiracy theory reason

Infrastructure spending and urban planning has decided it.

you mean suburban planning
the great Australian dream

would you prefer to live in a Chinese city?

The market does not decide, it's driven by policy decisions which does not always align with public sentiment or demand. Our planning is very closely aligned with American cities urban form, not the Chinese model. Delivering public transport over such long distances at frequencies where people will actually be attracted to it is very, very, expensive and a logistical nightmare.