[COM] New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $2.1b

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#511 Post by skyliner » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:11 pm

Omicron wrote:Sharing a room with other people isn't so great when you're having to urinate into your container every hour, or vomit into the bucket, or are in a great deal of pain. I'd much rather an individual room, and I guarantee that single rooms for everyone will help ward staff immensely in the sense that they won't be constantly under attack from patients and families alike demanding single rooms that simply do not exist.
Sounds like you've seen, heard and experienced this as I have. very pertinent points mate - a far cry from the old wards of around 20 each with an open fire for heating and doors and windows for A/C.

BTW omi - thanks for the floor area info - huge!!

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#512 Post by Amused » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:48 am

Why single rooms/suites?

Cross infection is the first thing, and this tends to happen with single room facilities as well. Each room having its own bathroom however will go a long way to cut down on the potential for cross infection as the existing quota is about 8 patients to a toilet.

Single rooms are easier to emplace effective quarantine.

The next thing is for bed movement. You could have a thousand male beds available but if the patient you're trying to move out of emergency is a female and there are no free female beds then females are considered bed blocked. But because beds are available, the bed block is statistically hidden. This is also the same for individuals with persistant superbugs, eg Methicillin Resistant Staphlococcus Aureas and Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus. These patients can not be put into a bay under any circumstances, nor a corridor in ED. So if there's no single rooms, not only are these patients bed blocked but an emergency cubicle is taken up and the patient cannot be moved, even for critical emergency paients. Single rooms eliminate the 'side room shortage' and all beds can be used for male or female.

Next, we're not in the pre-war eras, and patient rehabilitation is directly correlated with patient attitidue. 99 times out of a 100, a patient with their own room and privacy has a more positive attitude. There are very very few people who would prefer to be in a bay.

Patient privacy - Believe it or not, when the curtain is dragged around the bed, other people can still hear the extremely intimate medical discussions going on. Also, you'll note the gown doesn't cover your backside so getting out of bed and strolling across the corridor to the toilet generally leaves little to the imagination.

Room to work. Bays deliver very little room to work after it becomes full of patients, visitors and equipment. In single rooms things can be secured to the walls and off the floors for more space of movement. Equipment, belongings and visitors don't creep into the space of other patients. Loud patients don't keep others awake.

Security, with six patients to a room, an anti-social may not be noticed when there is a lot going on or because patients/staff assume said anti-social is a relative/friend of another patient. In a single room a patient is very aware of a stranger being out of place.

Another personal favorite of mine is the spare bed for a visitor. Ever since I began working in a hospital seting, seeing patients at their most vulnerable and often during some of the worst times of their life, family can be empowering and sometimes a family member needs to be with their sick loved one as much as the loved one needs the company. This hit me like a sledge hammer one day when I relieved in an oncology ward and to watch a young thirty something man with metastatic cancer and his wife sitting with him watching some rediculous show on tv, just being together, the silent presence of each other. It was well after visting hours were over but this guy had no time left to live so I certainly wasn't going to be asking the woman to leave. I've never taken for granted the need for human companionship since and from that day forward I recognised that if I were ever to help design a hospital, facility for a family member to stay over would have been right up on my list.

I could probably come up with other values for single rooms but if I haven't sold the importance yet then I think one needs to have a public hospital stay and then see if they're still adverse to the notion.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#513 Post by ynotsfables » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:18 am

Absolutely spot on Amused, thats why i believe this hospital is so needed it will be the beginning of a new health era in Adelaide, i think the plan is to centralize all of the health care clinical services at the RAH as a main headquarter, then they will distribute the work and specialties to the other public hospitals.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#514 Post by Benski81 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:58 pm

Amused wrote:Why single rooms/suites?

Cross infection is the first thing, and this tends to happen with single room facilities as well. Each room having its own bathroom however will go a long way to cut down on the potential for cross infection as the existing quota is about 8 patients to a toilet.

Single rooms are easier to emplace effective quarantine.

The next thing is for bed movement. You could have a thousand male beds available but if the patient you're trying to move out of emergency is a female and there are no free female beds then females are considered bed blocked. But because beds are available, the bed block is statistically hidden. This is also the same for individuals with persistant superbugs, eg Methicillin Resistant Staphlococcus Aureas and Vancomycin Resistant Enterococcus. These patients can not be put into a bay under any circumstances, nor a corridor in ED. So if there's no single rooms, not only are these patients bed blocked but an emergency cubicle is taken up and the patient cannot be moved, even for critical emergency paients. Single rooms eliminate the 'side room shortage' and all beds can be used for male or female.

Next, we're not in the pre-war eras, and patient rehabilitation is directly correlated with patient attitidue. 99 times out of a 100, a patient with their own room and privacy has a more positive attitude. There are very very few people who would prefer to be in a bay.

Patient privacy - Believe it or not, when the curtain is dragged around the bed, other people can still hear the extremely intimate medical discussions going on. Also, you'll note the gown doesn't cover your backside so getting out of bed and strolling across the corridor to the toilet generally leaves little to the imagination.

Room to work. Bays deliver very little room to work after it becomes full of patients, visitors and equipment. In single rooms things can be secured to the walls and off the floors for more space of movement. Equipment, belongings and visitors don't creep into the space of other patients. Loud patients don't keep others awake.

Security, with six patients to a room, an anti-social may not be noticed when there is a lot going on or because patients/staff assume said anti-social is a relative/friend of another patient. In a single room a patient is very aware of a stranger being out of place.

Another personal favorite of mine is the spare bed for a visitor. Ever since I began working in a hospital seting, seeing patients at their most vulnerable and often during some of the worst times of their life, family can be empowering and sometimes a family member needs to be with their sick loved one as much as the loved one needs the company. This hit me like a sledge hammer one day when I relieved in an oncology ward and to watch a young thirty something man with metastatic cancer and his wife sitting with him watching some rediculous show on tv, just being together, the silent presence of each other. It was well after visting hours were over but this guy had no time left to live so I certainly wasn't going to be asking the woman to leave. I've never taken for granted the need for human companionship since and from that day forward I recognised that if I were ever to help design a hospital, facility for a family member to stay over would have been right up on my list.

I could probably come up with other values for single rooms but if I haven't sold the importance yet then I think one needs to have a public hospital stay and then see if they're still adverse to the notion.
I completely agree with this having seen what a friend of mine went through after his car accident. He had to go in for another lot of facial reconstructive surgery which was a procedure where they cut him from ear to ear, pull his face down and take bone from his hip to rebuild his cheek bone and eye socket. So you would think that after an operation like that you'd just want to get drugged up on pain killers and sleep the time away. Well that's what he wanted to do but couldn't because he was sharing the ward with this old guy who spent the entire night shuffling over to my friend's bed, grabbing onto the side of it and shaking it while trying to communicate with him. The problem was that because he'd had a stroke the poor old guy couldn't speak anymore and just ended up making incoherrent noises at this friend of mine. He even mistook a bin next to the bed as a toilet and urinated into not once but twice and this went on the entire night. My friend said that as he finally drifted off he could hear the birds outside and knew he'd been awake the entire night, and then made the comment that he wished they'd just let him go home to rest. So I think single rooms are definitely a good idea.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#515 Post by Aidan » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:55 pm

ynotsfables wrote:Absolutely spot on Amused, thats why i believe this hospital is so needed it will be the beginning of a new health era in Adelaide, i think the plan is to centralize all of the health care clinical services at the RAH as a main headquarter, then they will distribute the work and specialties to the other public hospitals.
Amused and others are absolutely correct about single rooms - it's the only sensible layout for inpatients.

But this doesn't mean a new hospital is needed. Refurbishing and upgrading the existing hospital could achieve the same results for far less money.
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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#516 Post by Will » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:15 pm

Aidan wrote:
ynotsfables wrote:Absolutely spot on Amused, thats why i believe this hospital is so needed it will be the beginning of a new health era in Adelaide, i think the plan is to centralize all of the health care clinical services at the RAH as a main headquarter, then they will distribute the work and specialties to the other public hospitals.
Amused and others are absolutely correct about single rooms - it's the only sensible layout for inpatients.

But this doesn't mean a new hospital is needed. Refurbishing and upgrading the existing hospital could achieve the same results for far less money.
Don't you think the government investigated the option of renovating the current RAH before deciding to start over again?

Just because they didn't seek public opinion does not mean they did not investigate that option. The government employs teams of people to make such decisions. Such decisions are not made on the back of an envelope

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#517 Post by rhino » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:19 pm

Will wrote:
Aidan wrote:
ynotsfables wrote:Absolutely spot on Amused, thats why i believe this hospital is so needed it will be the beginning of a new health era in Adelaide, i think the plan is to centralize all of the health care clinical services at the RAH as a main headquarter, then they will distribute the work and specialties to the other public hospitals.
Amused and others are absolutely correct about single rooms - it's the only sensible layout for inpatients.

But this doesn't mean a new hospital is needed. Refurbishing and upgrading the existing hospital could achieve the same results for far less money.
Don't you think the government investigated the option of renovating the current RAH before deciding to start over again?

Just because they didn't seek public opinion does not mean they did not investigate that option. The government employs teams of people to make such decisions. Such decisions are not made on the back of an envelope
:lol: :lol: :lol: Bravo!
cheers,
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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#518 Post by Benski81 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:38 pm

Aidan wrote:But this doesn't mean a new hospital is needed. Refurbishing and upgrading the existing hospital could achieve the same results for far less money.
Is this true though? Let's say that it is true and let's assume a refurb costs half as much so $850mil, how long before it would cease to be adequate to cope with the demand placed on it and before we then needed to build a whole new hospital regardless. So ignoring the disruption to services while the hospital is undergoing it's extreme makeover, the refurb just seems to be a waste of money as the ultimate inevitable outcome is a new hospital anyway. Fair call?

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#519 Post by Aidan » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:56 pm

Will wrote:
Aidan wrote:
ynotsfables wrote:Absolutely spot on Amused, thats why i believe this hospital is so needed it will be the beginning of a new health era in Adelaide, i think the plan is to centralize all of the health care clinical services at the RAH as a main headquarter, then they will distribute the work and specialties to the other public hospitals.
Amused and others are absolutely correct about single rooms - it's the only sensible layout for inpatients.

But this doesn't mean a new hospital is needed. Refurbishing and upgrading the existing hospital could achieve the same results for far less money.
Don't you think the government investigated the option of renovating the current RAH before deciding to start over again?

Just because they didn't seek public opinion does not mean they did not investigate that option. The government employs teams of people to make such decisions. Such decisions are not made on the back of an envelope
Of course they investigated it... but not in an unbiased way. They put for too much value on the conclusions of incompetent British consultants, and existing site alternatives weren't investigated thoroughly enough.
Benski81 wrote:Is this true though? Let's say that it is true and let's assume a refurb costs half as much so $850mil, how long before it would cease to be adequate to cope with the demand placed on it and before we then needed to build a whole new hospital regardless. So ignoring the disruption to services while the hospital is undergoing it's extreme makeover, the refurb just seems to be a waste of money as the ultimate inevitable outcome is a new hospital anyway. Fair call?
Unfair call - future upgrades will always be needed whether or not a new hospital is built.
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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#520 Post by Waewick » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:21 pm

I just want them to hurry up and build it.

The patients and the nurses deserve it!

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#521 Post by Amused » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:25 pm

Alright, I'll tap in again here.
As an existing health care professional, I have been around ward redevelopmets on a number of occasions. The disruption they cause to services and to rehabilition can not go unrecognised. The sound of a single drill in a concrete wall reverberates loudly up and down the floors and along levels to the point that people can not communicate with each each other and can barely hear themselves think. Many patients with long term rehabilitiation need to put up with the noise of redevelopment works for extended periods of time and I refer to my previous discussion about the importance of this. Time of rehabilitation is directly correlated to patient attitude. Now, I was desperately trying to find a study that I read a short while ago but as I can't find it, I'll have to describe it;

There was a study done on two groups of dogs. Both groups were suspended by a harness and electrocuted. Both groups of dogs had a lever in front of them. When the first group flicked the lever, the electrocutions would stop. The second group would have their electrocutions continued regardless of whether the lever was pressed. The first group of dogs learned that they could control the negative stimuli, the second group learned that they couldn't. Both groups of dogs were put in a second test. In this test the dogs were not suspended and electrocutions would cease simply by jumping over a small wall into a second enclosure. Almost all dogs from the first group jumped over the fence to safety. Almost all the dogs from the second group laid down on the ground and waited until the electrocution ceased, effectively giving up. Subsequent tests on the dogs showed the second group was almost always liable to give up under any stress and so the theory goes that continuous negative stimuli uncontrolable by the subject causes the subject to permanently adopt a 'give up' mentality.

What is the importance of this study for the sake of this arguement? Many of the patients in a hospital are there because they are very sick and have no control over their movement. The sound of redevelopments is very loud and a negative stimuli. Therefore, most patients can not control the negative stimuli and hence become just like the dogs in group 2 of the above study. They give up. The thing is though that this classical conditioning causes them to give up on everything, including rehabilitation. In the coldest, administrative view point, this leads to bedblock, ie, patients taking up beds longer. Morally, the results of such stimuli on the patients is grossly negative on their attitude, outlook, motivation, emotions and rehabilitation. It is absolutely wrong to subject patients and staff to this on a large scale.

Secondly, many whom have had direct experience with the reconstruction of hospitals have commented that if they could do it over, they'd never retain original buildings and would have started from scratch. The costs blew out more than expected trying to reinvigorate old buildings and encorporate new buildings into the mix. It was frustrating for all involved, costly, and generally just a pain in the backside.

Many of those in the Save the RAH campaign actually just wanted to retain the name 'RAH' and not have 'MJNH.' With the old name now retained, many in the group have lost their steam to argue against the redevelopment. Those that are still arguing have lost their way a little as they're probably not sure what they're arguing against now. People outside of the hospital really can't possibly make an educated arguement without staying there as a patient or working there. The building is a rabbit warren, different layouts on different floors due to being build on a hill. There's 3 ground floors depending on which side of the hospital you're trying to exit on.

It screams institution. It is run down and the general build does not lend itself to easy rennovation with exceedingly thick concrete walls. Single rooms can not be made out of bays as there will be windowless rooms. Again, patient rehabilitation and the correlation with attitude. The buidlings including lifts were built pre mechanical innovation. Electric bed movers are now used to move large masses around the hospital but the size of corridors, doors, rooms and most impotantly, lifts, do not lend themselves enough room for appropriate use of bed movers so staff are still risking personal injury to their knees and back trying to manouver heavy weights around. Getting into certain lifts at RAH is a time consuming operation, generally removing equipment from the bed or tubes/wires from the patient to allow them to reach when trying to fit everything into the lift.
The 'world class' emergency department is now leagues too small for demand. When Rann opened the new ED he procalimed that no patient would have to wait in the corridors again. It is now common place for the ED to be pushing up to 200% capacity, each bed-length of corridor now has it's own bed number. I challenge you to have a look when you're there next. AC13 means 'unit A, corridor opposite cubicle 13' Just about every cubicle has an ACx opposite it in the corridor.

The fact of the matter is that we are pushing up to critical mass, soon our medical services will collapse. That is the reality. I hate the thought that people think we can keep patching it up and that this will suffice if MAJOR health projects are not undertaken now, we will be in a world of hurt in just a few short years. Take it from someone who calls a day when the emergency department is at 110% full a quiet day. We are at breaking point and a rebuild will not suffice.

P.S I wonder if any of the 'Save The Rah' campaigners work in acute care or whether they're all from stable faculties such as Plastics or Surgical where they get to accept only as many as they're prepared to take and then turn away the rest... oh and where they're paid exceedingly more than us mere mortals unable to turn away our patients as they flood in the front doors.

P.P.S, John Hill was one of the strongest advocates for a RAH rebuilt on ints existing location until he was shown all the evidence, at which point he agreed it had to be built from scratch elsewhere.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#522 Post by Pants » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:20 am

Thanks for the insight. A really interesting read.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#523 Post by rhino » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:39 am

Thankyou Amused. It's good to read some usefull information that's not a rant, a conspiracy theory or an aspiration to justify one's previous dodgy argument.
cheers,
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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#524 Post by Isiskii » Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:14 am

Paging stumpjumper to the thread...

I kid, I kid. Thanks Amused - a most insightful read in a long time! Your input is greatly appreciated and validated.

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[COM] Re: #PRO: New Royal Adelaide Hospital | $1.7b

#525 Post by Ho Really » Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:10 pm

Will wrote:Don't you think the government investigated the option of renovating the current RAH before deciding to start over again?

Just because they didn't seek public opinion does not mean they did not investigate that option. The government employs teams of people to make such decisions. Such decisions are not made on the back of an envelope
I hope they did consult the right people. I wasn't against a renovated or extended RAH (preferring its location) and I am not against a new hospital (a clean new beginning), but I'm not quite convinced about where it is going to be built. Sorry if I've repeated myself over this issue (somewhere in this thread or in another), but I would like someone here to make a list why it should or shouldn't be built where it is planned. Member Amused gave some good reasons why we should have single rooms, etc. Now, can the same be done for my question? Thanks.

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