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Light rail should be one of the options considered. The cost of new trains, plus signalling is going to be significant, so it might well be that conversion to light rail is not only cheaper, but adds flexibility as far as extensions from Port Dock and Grange are concerned.

rubberman wrote:Light rail should be one of the options considered. The cost of new trains, plus signalling is going to be significant, so it might well be that conversion to light rail is not only cheaper, but adds flexibility as far as extensions from Port Dock and Grange are concerned.

I believe light rail to Semaphore, Port Adelaide and West Lakes can work as part of a western suburbs tram network that includes Adelaide Airport and conversion of the Grange line to light rail. I don't quite see light rail all the way to Outer Harbor necessarily working.

How realistic is retaining heavy rail with "battery-electric" or "hydrogen fuel cell powered trains" as mentioned in the article?

gnrc_louis wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:40 pm

How realistic is retaining heavy rail with "battery-electric" or "hydrogen fuel cell powered trains" as mentioned in the article?

Japan has a few battery powered trains in service, and there is currently a hydrogen powered train in testing.

The battery powered train that runs in part of Kyushu in Japan runs in two modes - one when it is under the electrical wires and the other in battery mode. This might be exploring on the three remaining unelectrified lines given that they all run through electrified sections on the approach to Adelaide Station.

I assume a tram line to Grange is going to require land. Is this concept likely to require the wide median along Port Rd to be converted to a tram corridor?

Whilst not the absolute worst idea, I still think that it would be an eyesore, and require removal of many trees. Why have two corridors within roughly 300 metres, along with a bus service running almost concurrently? There are better ways to spend 2 billion dollars, even without an election on the horizon.

I still think that rationing of a few stations along the Outer Harbor line may not be as apocalyptic as one anticipates. Woodville Park, and West Croydon going on the chopping block would enable a ten minute service to the city from Woodville, and turn a train service into er....a train service, instead of it being a long articulated bus with pathetically slow acceleration.

That's virtually what it is now, with the stations being so close.

I still see no point at all to putting hydrogen/battery trains onto the Outer Harbour/Grange lines. The infrastructure is already there in Adelaide Yard for full 25kv electrification and it would allow for stock to be purchased for use on all lines besides Belair, where obviously battery would make more sense.

cocoiadrop wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am

I still see no point at all to putting hydrogen/battery trains onto the Outer Harbour/Grange lines. The infrastructure is already there in Adelaide Yard for full 25kv electrification and it would allow for stock to be purchased for use on all lines besides Belair, where obviously battery would make more sense.

Battery trains on the Outer Harbor and Grange lines that can charge from the overhead in Adelaide yard/station should lead to much shorter infrastructure closure than was needed for Gawler line upgrade. Regenerative braking would make a little difference on that line, but should make a difference between Belair and Goodwood, as long as the batteries are small and light enough to be practical on the uphill run.

Here we go again with the annual OH light v heavy.. except now with the added excitement of hydrogen/batteries just to trick it up. . Dream on folks.. the Gawler line is not even all electric all the time yet.

MT269 wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:08 am

I assume a tram line to Grange is going to require land. Is this concept likely to require the wide median along Port Rd to be converted to a tram corridor?

Whilst not the absolute worst idea, I still think that it would be an eyesore, and require removal of many trees. Why have two corridors within roughly 300 metres, along with a bus service running almost concurrently? There are better ways to spend 2 billion dollars, even without an election on the horizon.

I still think that rationing of a few stations along the Outer Harbor line may not be as apocalyptic as one anticipates. Woodville Park, and West Croydon going on the chopping block would enable a ten minute service to the city from Woodville, and turn a train service into er....a train service, instead of it being a long articulated bus with pathetically slow acceleration.

That's virtually what it is now, with the stations being so close.

This is the material point. If people want close stations, so it's effectively a bus or tram service, then it's pointless using heavy rail.

So, the first question is to ask people what they prefer. Is that a lot of stops along that corridor, making it a tram or bus lane? Or do they want a fast service to the city with few stops, and buses feeding those few stops?

Asking heavy rail vehicles to undertake a task that buses or trams could do is a waste of public money. And vice versa, of course.

People really need a few options and costs to look at, including ride times etc:

Upgraded heavy rail, vs trams or buses, vs a hybrid such as heavy rail from Woodville to the CBD by heavy rail with a couple of stops only, with light rail from Woodville to Outer Harbor, Port Dock, Grange and beyond.

At the moment, with no numbers on costs, travel times etc, etc, it just boils down to people wanting something because of some random feelings. All very well, but not likely to convince governments to spend money.

claybro wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:04 pm

Here we go again with the annual OH light v heavy.. except now with the added excitement of hydrogen/batteries just to trick it up. . Dream on folks.. the Gawler line is not even all electric all the time yet.

Well, yeah. But at some point the government has to bite the bullet, given the age of the diesel railcars. It is likely to take five years to procure and build whatever vehicles are required and upgrade/replace infrastructure, be that signals or overhead wires.

Planning, detailed design and approval processes usually take three years at least.

So, there's actually not a lot of time to set the process in motion.

Having said that, my prediction is that the government will dither and delay, thinking that ten years is a way off. That means they will probably end up extending the life of the diesels, because by the time the government starts acting, it will be too late for building new vehicles, so that life extension will be the only practical option by that time.

There’s a perception that the 3000/3100 DEMUs are really old but in London we’re still running tube trains built and designed in the late 60s- if you look carefully you can see the manufacturing dates on the Bakerloo and Piccadilly lines are from around 1971 to 73 from memory. I’m sure other European cities are the same. On home visits to Adelaide I’ve always been quite happy with the interiors, cleanliness and journey in the 3000 class cars, especially with the fairly recent full refurbishments.

The 3000s/3100s do need to be converted to electric. After all, they are technically built as electric units.

The correct answer is to remove all the heavy rail stations (a silly 8 of them) between Port Adelaide and Bowden, and run light rail up Port Rd to Port Adelaide that also replaces Grange with light rail.

That way the inner suburbs get their close stations with hop on hop off that reach the city in the same time the heavy rail does now, but with more convenience and higher frequency, and people in the outer west get a more rapid and frequent service than the slow boat of today.

I really don't get the desire to run light rail up the Port Rd median. For most of its length it devoid of any significant destinations and is a hellscape to cross as a pedestrian. There's far more potential in upzoning areas around some of the stations on the existing line.

Nathan wrote:I really don't get the desire to run light rail up the Port Rd median. For most of its length it devoid of any significant destinations and is a hellscape to cross as a pedestrian. There's far more potential in upzoning areas around some of the stations on the existing line.

The flipside to this coin is that extending it down the Port Road median can trigger significant investment and upgrades to the whole corridor. It is a pedestrian hell, but light rail stations in strategic locations can help this. The Port Road median is pretty strategic and can form a base for a nice light rail network for the western suburbs.

Light rail can also be suitable for the likes of Kilkenny Road/David Terrace, Woodville Road-Findon Road, West Lakes Boulevarde, Port Adelaide, Semaphore and surrounds; and Henley Beach Road to the Airport.

Indeed, there is plenty of opportunity to develop mini-TODs around a number of stations: Kilkenny, Woodville, St Clair, Alberton, Seaton Park, Grange, Port Adelaide, Glanville and more.

Now is a good time to invest in the public transport of the west as the older generation of European migrants continues to pass away and as residential subdivisions continue.