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Why spend money now if the diesels can be kept going for another 10-15 years? The money saved could do other things like electrify the O-Bahn or extend the tram network in that time frame. If the hybrid railcar is successful, then that optimises the life of the existing railcars till the point where they are economically at end of life.cocoiadrop wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:02 pmPeople in this thread advocate for electrification of that line all the time. It’s a bit of a stretch to say we’re not discussing that (whether it be health benefits or just good transport policy).
The batteries are a good short term fix but they just need to get 25khz electrification done or something else. It’s kicking the can down the road and the pain of substitute buses and the money spent won’t be avoided.
I suppose the argument for spending money 'before' it's needed is that it will only be more expensive later.rubberman wrote:Why spend money now if the diesels can be kept going for another 10-15 years? The money saved could do other things like electrify the O-Bahn or extend the tram network in that time frame. If the hybrid railcar is successful, then that optimises the life of the existing railcars till the point where they are economically at end of life.cocoiadrop wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:02 pmPeople in this thread advocate for electrification of that line all the time. It’s a bit of a stretch to say we’re not discussing that (whether it be health benefits or just good transport policy).
The batteries are a good short term fix but they just need to get 25khz electrification done or something else. It’s kicking the can down the road and the pain of substitute buses and the money spent won’t be avoided.
What is the argument for spending money before it's needed? Especially when other things need money spent on them.
It could be more expensive later, possibly. However, if you consider interest at 4.5%, and assuming for a rough estimate that conversion of the Outer Harbor and Hills line together would cost as much as Gawler, then in ten years you pay at least an extra $400m just in interest. If you factor in that such a loan needs repayment, that's an extra $200m or so over the period. $550m! Yeah, nah.ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:34 amI suppose the argument for spending money 'before' it's needed is that it will only be more expensive later.rubberman wrote:Why spend money now if the diesels can be kept going for another 10-15 years? The money saved could do other things like electrify the O-Bahn or extend the tram network in that time frame. If the hybrid railcar is successful, then that optimises the life of the existing railcars till the point where they are economically at end of life.cocoiadrop wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:02 pmPeople in this thread advocate for electrification of that line all the time. It’s a bit of a stretch to say we’re not discussing that (whether it be health benefits or just good transport policy).
The batteries are a good short term fix but they just need to get 25khz electrification done or something else. It’s kicking the can down the road and the pain of substitute buses and the money spent won’t be avoided.
What is the argument for spending money before it's needed? Especially when other things need money spent on them.
So, correct me if I'm wrong but they're planning to electrify the Outer Harbor line in the (very) long time but for some reason the Belair line can't be electrified, right?cocoiadrop wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:02 pmPeople in this thread advocate for electrification of that line all the time. It’s a bit of a stretch to say we’re not discussing that (whether it be health benefits or just good transport policy).
The batteries are a good short term fix but they just need to get 25khz electrification done or something else. It’s kicking the can down the road and the pain of substitute buses and the money spent won’t be avoided.
No evidence to suggest 'planned' electrification of the OH/Grange lines, but basically the Belair line can't be electrified due to the low tunnel ceiling.RetroGamer87 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:01 pmSo, correct me if I'm wrong but they're planning to electrify the Outer Harbor line in the (very) long time but for some reason the Belair line can't be electrified, right?cocoiadrop wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:02 pmPeople in this thread advocate for electrification of that line all the time. It’s a bit of a stretch to say we’re not discussing that (whether it be health benefits or just good transport policy).
The batteries are a good short term fix but they just need to get 25khz electrification done or something else. It’s kicking the can down the road and the pain of substitute buses and the money spent won’t be avoided.
Surely technology is at the point now where overhead charging points could be set up at stations to charge while stopped and at layover either end, with battery lasting for the in between bits? Does heavy rail draw too much power for a battery system? They are discussing a trial here in Perth for a trackless tram using stop only charging at the various stops/stations along Scarborough Beach road. Being light “ rail” though it might be different.Llessur2002 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:20 amI believe at this stage there are feasibility studies being undertaken for the long-term plans for the OH and Grange lines but most, if not all, options involve either battery or hydrogen technology with potential electrification of only small sections of the line to allow for battery recharging. I'm not sure if full electrification is being considered but from the discussions I had with someone connected to the project I didn't get the impression it was (or more accurately, I'd had a few beers at the time so my recollection of the conversation is hazy but I definitely came away with an alternative technology vibe).
To be honest, as a regular user of the line I'm leaning more towards an alternative approach if it cuts the need to close the line for a couple of years. Battery or battery hybrid options seem pretty attractive and should be feasible given the relatively short length of the line. Time will tell I guess.
It's likely feasible to have the line electrified for much of its length and run on battery over difficult sections like the tunnels. However, with the steady improvement in battery technology, it's also likely to be a really economic option in ten years. For example, maybe half the line only needing to be electrified, while the batteries do the rest. This is already feasible for buses, and is proceeding in several cities in Europe. So, it's a definite prospect for heavy rail.claybro wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:13 amSurely technology is at the point now where overhead charging points could be set up at stations to charge while stopped and at layover either end, with battery lasting for the in between bits? Does heavy rail draw too much power for a battery system? They are discussing a trial here in Perth for a trackless tram using stop only charging at the various stops/stations along Scarborough Beach road. Being light “ rail” though it might be different.Llessur2002 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:20 amI believe at this stage there are feasibility studies being undertaken for the long-term plans for the OH and Grange lines but most, if not all, options involve either battery or hydrogen technology with potential electrification of only small sections of the line to allow for battery recharging. I'm not sure if full electrification is being considered but from the discussions I had with someone connected to the project I didn't get the impression it was (or more accurately, I'd had a few beers at the time so my recollection of the conversation is hazy but I definitely came away with an alternative technology vibe).
To be honest, as a regular user of the line I'm leaning more towards an alternative approach if it cuts the need to close the line for a couple of years. Battery or battery hybrid options seem pretty attractive and should be feasible given the relatively short length of the line. Time will tell I guess.
Can't they lower the floor in the tunnels?ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:38 amNo evidence to suggest 'planned' electrification of the OH/Grange lines, but basically the Belair line can't be electrified due to the low tunnel ceiling.
Anything is possible. However, you'd have to stop rail freight to and from Adelaide/Melbourne for the several months it would likely take. It would have to be a last resort.Ho Really wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:54 pmCan't they lower the floor in the tunnels?ChillyPhilly wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:38 amNo evidence to suggest 'planned' electrification of the OH/Grange lines, but basically the Belair line can't be electrified due to the low tunnel ceiling.
Cheers