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I admit not knowing the technical aspects of an NBN roll-out, including overall commercial arrangements, but I do know that there appears consensus generally on the fact that Governments are poor owners / managers of essentially commercial enterprises. Where is the true economic benefit of seeking to connect almost every single household to massive internet speeds? I for one think private market forces are best placed to establish viable networks, and I cannot believe that in this day and age, fixed point to point technology will remain at the forefront for the type of duration the NBN will need to make a return.
With significant national debt problems, any alternative that delivers benefits at a greatly reduced cost must surely be seriously considered - the concept of "doing it once, doing it right" and hence borrowing more money is essentially what caused the current economic crises - living beyond our means?

High speed internet is basically the 21st centuries freeways. If you look at places like South Korea and Japan, they have internet access which is light years ahead of what we have here in Australia. Doing it just because they have it, is not what I'm saying, but that it is a necessary piece of infrastructure for economies in the 21st century.
Limiting high speed internet to businesses only would be like limiting use of a freeway to freight trucks only. Or the telephone when it came into existence and widespread use.
Big businesses, universities, etc have had access to internet at higher speeds then households for years anyway..such as T1, whereas households where limited to ADSL.

NBN is something that is needed.
They may not be implementing it as perfectly as they could(I really don't know), but anything the Opposition proposes in place of what the Government is doing, will be several steps backwards and that you can be guaranteed of. It's a guarantee because the Opposition is trying to hammer the government on spending..so they aren't going to go and propose policies which involve spending as much.
And since they aren't going to spend as much as the government, we are going to end up with an inferior product.

It's things like this that you should all be scared of. The government may not be perfect, but some projects are necessities.
If the Liberals are going to cut them, and put cheaper options in place...you should be wondering how this will affect you.
Not just in your own home, but in your daily life overall.
We are in a new age, whether people have realized or not. A necessary piece of infrastructure in this new age is high speed internet.

I for one hope that whoever wins, that this project is maintained.

zippySA wrote:I admit not knowing the technical aspects of an NBN roll-out, including overall commercial arrangements, but I do know that there appears consensus generally on the fact that Governments are poor owners / managers of essentially commercial enterprises.

This is something that I've never really understood. In my view the NBN, that is the physical infrastructure, should most definitely be government owed. As should, I believe, most infrastructure of national significance. This constant desire to sell these assets off for cash has always struck me as short sighted and not in the best interest of Australians.

Where is the true economic benefit of seeking to connect almost every single household to massive internet speeds? I for one think private market forces are best placed to establish viable networks, and I cannot believe that in this day and age, fixed point to point technology will remain at the forefront for the type of duration the NBN will need to make a return.

Private market forces have not provided this infrastructure in the past, why do you think they are best positioned to do this? The eventual need for Fibre to the Premises in the telecoms industry has been know for a very, very long time, yet very little has been done to implement it, and certainly not on any sort of large scale until the government’s NBN.

Despite any advances in any communications technology in the next 50 years, I can't see that anything would be eclipsing the potential of Fibre for bandwidth, latency and reliability. Certainly not a wireless technology, but I won't get started on that, it's been done before. Repeatedly.

With significant national debt problems, any alternative that delivers benefits at a greatly reduced cost must surely be seriously considered - the concept of "doing it once, doing it right" and hence borrowing more money is essentially what caused the current economic crises - living beyond our means?

So what happens when the cheaper version hit's its limits 5-10 years after it’s completed? What's the cost to further upgrade it? What's the cost to the economy in the delays and additional construction time it'll take to get any further upgrades to actually happen? By not "Doing it one, Doing it Right, Doing it with Fibre", will the cost, both of the projects themselves and the subsequent impact on the economy of a second drawn out upgrade process far exceed what it would have cost to build with fibre in the first place? Does that have an impact on potential revenues which offset that implantation cost somewhat?

We cannot see all of the benefits and needs for this technology now, some we can, but many will come after the deployment and inventive and creative Australians begin to look at what they can do with the technology, how to best utilise it and ultimately, push it's boundary's. All of that is hard to do without the infrastructure being in place, but it will happen.

I also believe that the quoted performance of the Coalition’s alternative are misleading. I haven't read the policy, only gotten bits and pieces of it, but since it's relying on Copper as it's FttN based, it still has the fatal distance flaw. The longer the copper the poorer the performance. The more people you have trying to run high speeds across bundles of copper, the greater the interference on the lines and down go the speeds. Both of these are none issues with Fibre and I think that if we do end up with a FttN solution under the Coalition, people will for the most part be very disappointed by it's performance.

rev wrote:I for one hope that whoever wins, that this project is maintained.

+1, absolutely agree with this.

This has become another Labour v's Liberal arguement. The Labour cheersquad will not have anything other than fibre to home system regardless of cost, need of this system. The Liberals concerned at massive cost state the case that in a vast sparsely populated country, we simply cannot afford to maintain connection to every dwelling (the gold plated option) and offer up a system which is apparently next to useless. At the very least given the massive amount being spent on this infastructure, the need/cost/operation of this system should not be sold on labour NBN propaganda or Liberal miss- information. There is plenty of evidence worldwide that cable to home is expensive to maintain and does have a limited lifespan.I have also been told by a comminication tech that a properly maintained copper connection to individual househlds is adequate for local service, with fibre handling the main load. We cannot continue to spend billions on infastrucutre with borrowed money "just because we want it". It needs to demonstrate a return to the economy and unfortunately, glossy ads from NBN about holographic apartions in boardrooms and homes around the nation and soreboards with national internet performances do not proove this to me.

Claybro,

That would be correct IF the Coalition's proposal was cheaper than the NBN.

Can you explain to me how it can be cheaper if they build fibre to the node now, and then upgrade it to fibre to the home when demand requires it? The Coalition plan, in the long run requires it to spend just as much as the NBN proposal, PLUS all those cabinets with electronics in them. The Coalition plan must be more expensive on that fact alone.

Next. The Coalition plan assumes that Telstra will give it the copper for nothing. Can you please tell me why any Telstra shareholder or the Telstra Board would agree to give the copper away for nothing? Seriously? The Coalition is asking us to believe that a commercial operator will give away a few billions worth of assets for free! Do you really believe that? If so, perhaps you might like to tell me why a shareholder of Telstra would agree to it? For nothing? So it is going to cost even more under the Coalition.

Next. The Coalition plan did not include the cost of maintaining the copper network. Nor the cost of the power to the cabinets of the nodes. All up, probably a billion or so per year based on what Telstra is now paying to maintain its copper.

So, over the long term, the Coalition plan has a higher capital cost as the copper fails and is replaced to the home as demand increases plus the cost of the cabinets, plus the cost of the copper wire (unless you can show that Telstra will give it away for free), plus it has a higher ongoing maintenance and operational cost.

Do it once, and do it right, is certainly the cheapest way to go for our communications network.

Oh, and what do you think will happen to the value of your home if you are remote from a 'node'? If you have a rental property, do you think tenants are going to be interested if there is no high speed broadband available at your end of the street, or will they look for rental properties near a node? Nice free windfall on the taxpayer for someone living near a node, too bad about the losers 250m down the road.

This is not about politics Claybro - the fibre to the node plan stinks, technically, financially and socially. It only makes sense for those people who live near a node, who will be heavily subsidised by people living away from the nodes. If you look at the cost and the number of people who will actually get an improved service, it makes no sense at all.

Yeah, the 'Telstra will give us the copper' thing is a bit short sighted. Surely making acquiring an asset an election promise would drive the cost of that asset up.

rubberman wrote:Next. The Coalition plan did not include the cost of maintaining the copper network. Nor the cost of the power to the cabinets of the nodes. All up, probably a billion or so per year based on what Telstra is now paying to maintain its copper.

Nor does the NBN proposal cover ongoing maintenance costing. Seems everyone has fallen for the line that fibre optic cable lasts for a lifetime. All current evidence suggests it does not. (except NBNCO advertising proeganda) Research suggests 30 years for home connections.

rubberman wrote:Do it once, and do it right, is certainly the cheapest way to go for our communications network.

Probelm is, we wll be doing it all again in 30 odd years, and when you multiply that by every home in Australia....well it certainly will be an up to the minute system. For a few years anyway.

Yes, but the copper is shagged NOW. So it will have to be replaced sooner, rather than later. As it is replaced, it will add to the cost of the FTTN.
Even if the copper were in good condition, it would still mean that houses further from the node will have inferior speed.
I am not sure where you get the 30 year figure. Most likely that is for the end connections, and that would be fair enough - but that is the same for the cabinets for the nodes as well, so since the cabinets are an extra over the cost of doing it right in the first place, that is even more of a negative for the fibre to the node proposal. The reason for that is that there will also be still end connections at the house, AND the cabinet.

No matter how you slice and dice it, there is no way that the FTTN makes any financial or technical sense at all.

If I were political about this, and an ALP supporter, I would be hugging myself with glee. This is 'workchoices' all over again. If the ALP catches the public mood on this, they might yet haul their backsides out of the fire. The only way the Coalition can avoid another workchoices debacle is to do a 180 on this. My interest is technical and financial only. personally I hope the Coalition 'gets it' on this issue before it is too late.

rubberman wrote:If I were political about this, and an ALP supporter, I would be hugging myself with glee. This is 'workchoices' all over again. If the ALP catches the public mood on this, they might yet haul their backsides out of the fire. The only way the Coalition can avoid another workchoices debacle is to do a 180 on this. My interest is technical and financial only. personally I hope the Coalition 'gets it' on this issue before it is too late.

Are you serious? Do you think the many hundreds of people losing thier jobs daily in Australia currently, or the small business owners hanging on by their fingernails give a flyinfg"F" about broadband right now? Ask anyone on the street if they think we should be spending 40 billion on cable, and see the response. Regardless of if world economics or government policy is making people very uneasy about the future, one thing for certain, voters are going to punish the current government.

Uh what you're forgetting is that in small businesses or any business, slow internet may may be the cause of frustration. That will reduce productivity. So yes, people care. It depends on who you ask on the street as well. I'm still shocked you choose to ignore all the information provided to you.

[

Shahkar wrote:

Uh what you're forgetting is that in small businesses or any business, slow internet may may be the cause of frustration. That will reduce productivity. So yes, people care. It depends on who you ask on the street as well. I'm still shocked you choose to ignore all the information provided to you.

Information provided by which post? I get my information from speaking with people in the telecommunications industry and from the internet like everyone else. Some of the information parroted here is directly copied from the NBN/ government sites and is therefore not trustworthy. As for people on the street, without fail everyone I have spoken to at work this week is concerned about 1. How quiet there companys are.2 How workers are being forced to take anual leave. 3. How much thier costs have increased (rent electricity etc.).... The broadband did not come up in converstion even once. So the previous post about some kind of Labour revival on the back of NBN is completely out of touch and just re-inforces the politicisation of the whole subject.

Find yourselves about 20 minutes and have a listen to Simon Hacket. He outlines the challenges to supplying an NBN by various methods.
http://simonhackett.com/2013/04/09/cd-s ... with-fttn/

What's missing from the debate are a set of real life everyday FTTH benefits that ordinary folk can relate to. 'Quicker access to porn' is the type of derogatory statement we can expect from the unwashed masses. IMHO Labor have failed to sell their vision.

It's worthy of note that Turnbull has successfully steered the Coalition's stance from outright cancelling the NBN to implementing a 2nd rate solution. He's a smart guy and I suspect more movement to occur, post-election. It won't happen pre-election as one of Abbott's strategies is to have the masses running scared of debt.

claybro wrote:

rubberman wrote:If I were political about this, and an ALP supporter, I would be hugging myself with glee. This is 'workchoices' all over again. If the ALP catches the public mood on this, they might yet haul their backsides out of the fire. The only way the Coalition can avoid another workchoices debacle is to do a 180 on this. My interest is technical and financial only. personally I hope the Coalition 'gets it' on this issue before it is too late.

Are you serious? Do you think the... (snip) ...small business owners hanging on by their fingernails give a flyinfg"F" about broadband right now?(snip)

Two small business people I know who are/were rusted on Coalition supporters because they are small business people and see/saw the Coalition as supporting their interests:

1). A guy who takes wedding videos and old home videos and slides, digitises and edits them if required by the customer. At the moment, and under the Coalition's plan, it is not possible for him to send these to people, or to send them to cloud storage - he has to put them on CD and send them by post. Reason, the upload speeds from his place to the customer are slow now and will be under the Coalition's plan. If the NBN gets in, he will be able to upload the videos to the customer, or cloud storage in seconds. The NBN will be a make or break for his business. He will be able to expand interstate and overseas because of the reduced interaction time compared to having to post disks. He will vote Labor. He will be gritting his teeth, and holding his nose, swearing and cursing, but he and his wife will vote Labor because his present hanging-on-by-the-nails business will be able to expand.

2). A couple of small single practitioner engineering consultancies who do work locally in Adelaide and interstate. They need to send big drawing files to interstate clients. At present this needs to be done overnight because of the slow internet upload speed. This means that if there is more than one client interstate needing the files, too bad, one of them misses out. With decent upload speeds this guy could forward these large files anytime during the day and provide his client with the information immediately. Considering all the infrastructure being done in Australia for mining, just to name one industry, just this improvement would shorten design times and enable coordination between offices and professionals interstate and overseas. The NBN will do it, the Coalition's scheme will not. They will vote Labor. They will be gritting their teeth, and holding their noses, swearing and cursing, but they and their wives, and probably their customers will vote Labor because their present hanging-on-by-the-nails businesses will be able to expand.

3). Woolies and Coles and other Australian retailers could set up far better on line - the problem they have now is that the quality of the presentation needs to be very much better than it is at the moment. (Eg if you are shopping with a supermarket on line, it is not enough to just show a bottle of pasta sauce - some customers want to see the detail of the label and the nutritional information etc, and to make it viable, you have to get everyone on board - the same with other products, people want to be able to examine products very closely, and that requires very high resolution images or videos). Won't happen under the Coalition's plan. Will happen under the NBN.

Every small business and some large businesses that depend for business or expansion on the internet will vote Labor. They will hate it, but the Coalition's policy will send them broke, just on this one issue. These people need the internet to improve for the survival of their businesses. It certainly concentrates the mind.

But if you want to do the ALP a favour, keep plugging the Coalition FTTN scheme. While I would not suggest that anyone supporting the FTTN is probably an ALP stooge, they are certainly assisting.

rubberman wrote:

claybro wrote:

rubberman wrote:If I were political about this, and an ALP supporter, I would be hugging myself with glee. This is 'workchoices' all over again. If the ALP catches the public mood on this, they might yet haul their backsides out of the fire. The only way the Coalition can avoid another workchoices debacle is to do a 180 on this. My interest is technical and financial only. personally I hope the Coalition 'gets it' on this issue before it is too late.

Are you serious? Do you think the... (snip) ...small business owners hanging on by their fingernails give a flyinfg"F" about broadband right now?(snip)

Two small business people I know who are/were rusted on Coalition supporters because they are small business people and see/saw the Coalition as supporting their interests:

1). A guy who takes wedding videos and old home videos and slides, digitises and edits them if required by the customer. At the moment, and under the Coalition's plan, it is not possible for him to send these to people, or to send them to cloud storage - he has to put them on CD and send them by post. Reason, the upload speeds from his place to the customer are slow now and will be under the Coalition's plan. If the NBN gets in, he will be able to upload the videos to the customer, or cloud storage in seconds. The NBN will be a make or break for his business. He will be able to expand interstate and overseas because of the reduced interaction time compared to having to post disks. He will vote Labor. He will be gritting his teeth, and holding his nose, swearing and cursing, but he and his wife will vote Labor because his present hanging-on-by-the-nails business will be able to expand.

2). A couple of small single practitioner engineering consultancies who do work locally in Adelaide and interstate. They need to send big drawing files to interstate clients. At present this needs to be done overnight because of the slow internet upload speed. This means that if there is more than one client interstate needing the files, too bad, one of them misses out. With decent upload speeds this guy could forward these large files anytime during the day and provide his client with the information immediately. Considering all the infrastructure being done in Australia for mining, just to name one industry, just this improvement would shorten design times and enable coordination between offices and professionals interstate and overseas. The NBN will do it, the Coalition's scheme will not. They will vote Labor. They will be gritting their teeth, and holding their noses, swearing and cursing, but they and their wives, and probably their customers will vote Labor because their present hanging-on-by-the-nails businesses will be able to expand.

3). Woolies and Coles and other Australian retailers could set up far better on line - the problem they have now is that the quality of the presentation needs to be very much better than it is at the moment. (Eg if you are shopping with a supermarket on line, it is not enough to just show a bottle of pasta sauce - some customers want to see the detail of the label and the nutritional information etc, and to make it viable, you have to get everyone on board - the same with other products, people want to be able to examine products very closely, and that requires very high resolution images or videos). Won't happen under the Coalition's plan. Will happen under the NBN.

Every small business and some large businesses that depend for business or expansion on the internet will vote Labor. They will hate it, but the Coalition's policy will send them broke, just on this one issue. These people need the internet to improve for the survival of their businesses. It certainly concentrates the mind.

But if you want to do the ALP a favour, keep plugging the Coalition FTTN scheme. While I would not suggest that anyone supporting the FTTN is probably an ALP stooge, they are certainly assisting.

+1

Great post.