#Official Defence Thread

[stumpjumper]

What Rann is not telling us is the cost in subsidies of these new industries, nor does he mention that while there is a demand for high tech defence products, the manufacture of them is, like automotive industry, highly portable.

Treasurer Foley has announced that the future of SA lies in mining and defence - both tiny employers and negligible earners for SA compared with agriculture, aquaculture and forestry; strengths of SA for which there is increasing demand.

If defence manufacturing needs large subsidies and is portable (remember Motorola?), mining is subject to fluctuating commodity prices.

Yet Foley and Rann (who co-head the sexy DefenceSA corporation) want to forward sell 100 years of forestry production, deny the fishing industry access to much of our water and they have overseen a steady decline in rural exports.

Meanwhile the rest of the world is crying out for clean produce. South Africa and New Zealand are meeting the increasing demand with Argentina beginning to play a larger role.

Foley might like being feted in Europe and the Pentagon as the head of a (highly subsidised) defence outfit, but the reality is that he is eroding the future of SA.

Of course defence chiefs around the world will suck up to him (and Foley's ego is one of his weak points) but what about reality? Rann has announced a pitch for a warship design centre that will provide '400 to 600 jobs'.

How many jobs are being lost in the far less subsidised rural sector as we fail to supply a stable and growing market for our pollution free, high quality primary products? What about the effect on our social health of rural towns being decimated? Not that Rann will lose votes there - he never had them.

Fair enough to diversify - but not regardless of subsidies and certainly not at the expense of ecologically sustainable industries for whose products there is increasing demand.

It's a different situation, but remember Newport Quays? '2,000 full time jobs for the next 10 to 20 years!' The only full time jobs down there are held by a couple of security guards who patrol the failed development and the site of the destroyed timber boat industry. Yet the government genius behind this masterpiece is Foley, the same man who sits at the head of DefenceSA's corporate structure.

Others might be happy entrusting the fate of SA to this man - I'm not.

[Hooligan]

Liberal is the bestest of them all!

ok

[Wayno]

How many jobs are being lost in the far less subsidised rural sector as we fail to supply a stable and growing market for our pollution free, high quality primary products?

is there data to indicate whether this is a problem or not?

[skyliner]

Read today in the AFC that Melbourne is pushing for being the main Aust. shipyard for defence in Aust. Look out Rann! They think that we can only support ONE such yard.

SA - STATE ON THE MOVE

[Prince George]

And NSW is making the same arguments. Everyone wants a big piece of the $300 billion pie (over the next 20-odd years).

[Will]

From the Advertiser:

South Australia chases extra billions from sub contract

Article from: The Advertiser



MILES KEMP

February 01, 2010 12:00am

SOUTH Australia has launched a bid to design the nation's new class of submarine "from the drawing board up", to earn billions of dollars in extra business from the contract.

Although the state is already guaranteed to assemble the 12 new-generation submarines, a new campaign will try to convince the Federal Government that Adelaide has the experts and the skills to start the project from scratch, rather than buy an off-the-shelf design from overseas.

A lobby group of high-profile South Australians will put their case to the Government, as well as to the doubters within the Defence Department, that Adelaide can learn from the mistakes of the troubled Collins-class submarines.

Governor Kevin Scarce, Treasurer Kevin Foley, industry experts and the state's defence advisory board last week met Defence Minister John Faulkner and Defence Personnel Minister Greg Combet to lobby for the design work, which would add billions of dollars and hundreds of jobs to the value of the contract.

"I think the Federal Government has the view that we can (design from the drawing board) in Adelaide because of the Collins-class expertise and the Air Warfare Destroyer expertise," Mr Foley said.

"We are advised that there is not an existing off-the-shelf design or even an existing hull which will suit the needs of the Australian navy.

"We argue that designing a ground-up vessel has a lot of appeal for the Federal Government and our view is that they will do that eventually."

The Federal Government has never put a taxpayer budget price on the plan to replace the six Collins-class submarines with 12 new vessels, but industry estimates are for between $10 billion for an off-the-shelf design and $36 billion for a locally designed and built version.

The Federal Government has said it could buy an off-the-shelf design, modify the Collins class, or design from scratch.

Pre-designed components that are bought in from overseas will reduce the amount spent in SA - and mean the state is less likely to win future build, design and maintenance contracts for the navy.

The Advertiser understands the Rudd Government is very keen to be convinced by state governments and a $1.8 million inquiry - due to be completed this month by the RAND Corporation in the United States - that the great bulk, if not all of the design work, can be done in Australia.

In November, SA launched its bid to have a navy design centre set up in Adelaide, but how much design can be done in Australia is yet to be determined.

The state faces an uphill battle to convince the Federal Government because of problems created by the current unreliable Collins-class submarine, which the Hawke Labor government decided could be built in Adelaide but from an existing Swedish design.

Problems with the submarines were exploited by the Howard government, especially when former Hawke government defence minister Kim Beazley was Opposition Leader.

Defence Department opinions about the well-performing British-built Oberon-class submarines are also hindering SA's efforts. While maximising the taxpayer dollars to be spent in Australia is attractive to politicians, SA also has to overcome high-powered forces within defence who are lobbying for an off-the-shelf design to match technology used by the US.

The Federal Government would not comment on last week's meeting with SA representatives.

Adelaide-based Acacia Research spokesman Ted Huber, who has teamed with defence giant Lockheed Martin to secure the AEGIS weapons system for Adelaide's Air Warfare Destroyer contract, said the vessels could be designed in Adelaide.

The industry estimates a ground-up design would require 16 to 18 million man hours covering up to eight years, using 900 design engineers.

Mr Huber warned there would need to be an influx of international experts, which would happen once a decision was made to design in Adelaide.



"We can design a hell of a lot more than we did on the Collins class," he said. "You can't say it couldn't be done here but we would have to bring in a lot of people with a lot of expertise.

"It is supposed to be a nation-building program, so it needs to have ramifications rather than just be a one-off buy in terms of kids studying maths and physics. Submarine Institute of Australia president Peter Horobin said that as was the case when the Collins class was devised, there was not a submarine which could be bought off-the-shelf to suit Australia.

He said many experts remained in Adelaide because of the Collins class project, and even though it was a Swedish design, it required "production design" during the construction process.

"I think the majority of the design will be undertaken in Adelaide and the majority of the people are already there," he said.

"There is a spectrum from blank sheet of paper design to production design which is needed during the manufacturing process and I think Adelaide will end up with about 80 per cent."

[Wayno]

fingers crossed - hope we get a large chunk of the submarine design work!

[JamesXander]

Wouldnt it be great if we could get international defence contracts aswell? I think this is a sector our government should keep investing in. Will pay for itself many times over in a short amount of time.


Just you wouldnt want to live near Osbourne etc during a time of war

[rhino]

Wouldnt it be great if we could get international defence contracts aswell? I think this is a sector our government should keep investing in.

I'm guessing you learned to run before you learned to walk?

How about we see if we can get this right first? It's great to have faith in your ability, but until you've proven to yourself that you have that ability .....

[monotonehell]

I'm guessing you learned to run before you learned to walk?

How about we see if we can get this right first? It's great to have faith in your ability, but until you've proven to yourself that you have that ability .....

You make ONE little error with a boat and suddenly 50 years of successful defence industry mean nothing... sheesh.

[Wayno]

You make ONE little error with a boat and suddenly 50 years of successful defence industry mean nothing... sheesh.

reminds me of a joke about a goat - keep that one for the next S-A drinks session...

[Pistol]

There are/were no issues with the manufacture of the Collins boats.

All the issues arose from the design.

[rhino]

From today's Adelaide Now:

7RAR Battalion coming to South Australia in boost for defence industry
Kim Wheatley From: The Advertiser February 08, 2010 12:00AM

SOUTH Australia's battling automotive industry will be given a long-awaited shot in the arm by the creation of the new Edinburgh military super base.
Defence analysts predict opportunities for retraining and reskilling among automotive workers to service a new fleet of armoured personnel carriers and infantry vehicles.
The state's automotive industry has been heavily hit during the global financial crisis, as a result of companies restructuring around the world.
While defence bosses say they cannot put an exact figure on the number of jobs, they say the establishment of the super base will boost the local car service industry.
The super base is being formed with the relocation of the 7RAR mechanised infantry battalion from Darwin, a move involving 1200 soldiers and injecting $100 million a year into this state.
With spouses and children, about 2000 people will begin arriving in South Australia in 10 months - cementing South Australia's reputation as a "defence state".
"This is a great opportunity for South Australia," Defence SA chief executive officer Andrew Fletcher said. "It brings the opportunity for expansion of our industries, particularly touching the motor vehicle industry which has been suffering hard times.
Mr Fletcher said that "it provides a great opportunity for us to start cross-training people from the motor vehicle industry into maintaining army vehicles".
It would also help strengthen SA's bid to win a $1.5 billion defence contract to build 1300 light armoured vehicles and create as many as 800 jobs.
The arrival of the new battalion already is providing advantages, with a $600 million base redevelopment, housing and infrastructure work in surrounding areas under way.
When complete, Edinburgh will join Queensland's Amberley as one of Australia's two defence super bases.
The Edinburgh redevelopment, home to the Orion maritime patrol aircraft and the electronic warfare support unit, includes provision of a new hospital, soldiers accommodation, workshops, laboratories and an air traffic control tower.
RAAF Edinburgh spokesman Group Captain Reg Carruthers said: "This is the best thing that's happened to RAAF Edinburgh in 50 years.
"The tired, sad looking 1940s red brick buildings are all being demolished.
"The good thing about these troops that are coming down here is that they're all on reasonable salaries and employed . . . these guys are all cashed up and the soldiers are chomping at the bit to get down here."
The 7th RAR battalion is a combat unit formed in 1965 during the infantry expansion because of Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War. Many of the soldiers have recently returned from tours of duty in Afghanistan. Their role was to fight alongside the Afghan army and also assist in reconstruction efforts in the war-torn country.
The Federal Government's 2006 decision to relocate the 7th RAR to Adelaide was a strategic move crucial to their training.
Apart from the obvious difficulties with training in the northern wet season, the Cultana Training Area west of Port Augusta, offers similar terrain to the Middle East.
Defence is in the process of quadrupling the size of Cultana from its current 48,000ha to 207,000 ha.
Bureaucrats admit that the influx of people will stretch services in the north but they believe that the many years of planning with health, education, housing and the transport department will address most issues.
About 350 new houses in Blakeview, Munno Para and Evanston Gardens will cost about $100 million. Around 120 existing homes are being bought in the council areas of Playford, Salisbury and Gawler.
Most children of serving personnel are expected to attend two new superschools at Smithfield Plains and Munno Para West. Predicted peak-hour traffic problems around the base are also expected to be addressed, but the Government is yet to make any announcement.
The councils of Playford and Salisbury were delighted at the prospect of the influx of soldiers but also played down concerns about a strain on services in the area.

[skyliner]

Very encouraging info Rhino. The spin offs and domino effects will greatly help the northern suburbs.

SA - STATE ON THE MOVE

[Wayno]

yep, thanks for posting Rhino. The more Defence in SA the merrier!