Train v Tram/Train v Tram v Road Bus v O-Bahn

[Wayno]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but under what conditions are the different types of PT most effective ==> Trains v Tram/Trains v Trams v Road Buses v O-Bahn.

[peas_and_corn]

My opinion, obviously

Trains- For long distance transport at high speeds for large numbers of people. Stops are normally far apart to decrease commute times. Usually fed with feeder buses.

Trams- For short distance transport at lower speeds. Best used in inner suburbs to encourage high density living and TODs.

I won't even touch tram trains.

Obahn- Long distance transport at high speeds, but better suited than trains if its terminus is in low density suburbs, such as the NE suburbs are.

Buses- Slower than trains but faster than trams, provides flexibility that neither can provide, but contributes to congestion. As mentioned above, can be paired with trains to increase its service radius.

[Splashmo]

Buses- Slower than trains but faster than trams, provides flexibility that neither can provide, but contributes to congestion. As mentioned above, can be paired with trains to increase its service radius.

Well, you may think buses are contributing to congestion if you get stuck behind one that's stopping, but the average peak hour bus could be taking 50 or 60 cars off the road.

[peas_and_corn]

Buses- Slower than trains but faster than trams, provides flexibility that neither can provide, but contributes to congestion. As mentioned above, can be paired with trains to increase its service radius.

Well, you may think buses are contributing to congestion if you get stuck behind one that's stopping, but the average peak hour bus could be taking 50 or 60 cars off the road.

It isn't a complaint about buses, it's just noting that buses are in traffic, while trains are not. Hell, I like buses.

[monotonehell]

I don't think that there's one single correct answer as there's both a lot of opinions as well as a lot of different solutions for different circumstances but generally speaking...

* Heavy rail should operate on long lines, between passenger concentration centres (ie where people are and want to get to in bulk), with limited stops in between, on a regular but not high frequency service, and grade separated from roads, footpaths, etc to allow smooth and fast running between stations. -- Linking centres mostly concerned with peak loads.

* Light rail (trams) should operate on short lines (less than 30 minutes for an entire trip), through high and medium density areas, on road where practical to interface with the urban fabric*, many stops, on a predictable high frequency service. -- Servicing entire strips with continuous services.
(* I had to throw that phrase in for old time's sake)

* Buses provide a similar service to light rail, but in less dense areas. They cover blocks instead of strips as light rail does. Can also provide late night alternative to heavy rail that is more expensive to run off peak. Used as connector, filler, feeder and loop services to complete the rail network. Also needed for hard to penetrate with rail areas and sprawl (boo! sprawl is a bad thing but as we have it I guess it should be serviced)

* Unguided busways are often promoted as a lower cost alternative to light rail, but this probably isn't such a good idea on a cost basis. But again this depends on passenger numbers and the spread of the area they are to service. Busways are useful to connect two disparate areas via a high speed corridor. Each situation is unique and needs to be assessed to see if a busway is a good solution or not. Where connecting sprawl to another distant area is involved, it might be a good solution.

* Guided busways (like the OBahn) are another consideration in addition, they offer a safer higher speed option along narrow corridors. The OBahn was selected over a regular carriageway due to the narrow space available along the lower part of the Torrens. It was only extended for the rest of the system due to public pressure. In hindsight, it made the whole system able to be run much faster that an unguided solution, knocking time off the entire route.


Anybody who advocates one solution fits all is some kind of irrational zealot and their opinions should be carefully examined. The truth is that different modes fit best in different situations.

[Nathan]

As said, buses don't cause congestion - but their big downside is that they're the most likely to be affected by delays caused by traffic and can be quite unreliable. Obviously this doesn't apply to busways.

[Omicron]

Buses- Slower than trains but faster than trams

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The big advantage of a tram is that the driver does not have to wait for people to buy tickets, ask ridiculously stupid questions, or gesture wildly whilst running across four lanes of traffic and demanding entry.

[AtD]

Buses- Slower than trains but faster than trams

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The big advantage of a tram is that the driver does not have to wait for people to buy tickets, ask ridiculously stupid questions, or gesture wildly whilst running across four lanes of traffic and demanding entry.

Also the extra doors on trams make loading times that much faster. In the Adelaide set up with one ticket machine per bus, even with everyone using multi-trips, buses can spend several minutes loading in the city in evening peak.

Trams like the Citadis with many large doors can load and unload far quicker. Even with the Brisbane bus system of rear door loading, a tram can load and unload faster as its doors are wider and closer to the ground. Trams also accelerate faster.

It's true that a bus to Glenelg and a tram to Glenelg take about the same time. However a bus that handled the same number of people as the trams do would be a lot slower simply due to dwell times at the stops.

A tram with a dedicated right of way is faster than a bus without it, and vice versa. It depends on the situation. There are examples of both fast and slow tram routes in Melbourne we can learn from.

[Wayno]

Thanks guys, all very educational

What about tram/trains - how do they differ in style & use?

[monotonehell]

What about tram/trains - how do they differ in style & use?

Traims? Trans?
There's no such thing!

Isn't all that's meant by that, a tram that can run on a heavy rail line? (Dual voltage & same gauge)

[Wayno]

Isn't all that's meant by that, a tram that can run on a heavy rail line? (Dual voltage & same gauge)

You are correct - wikipedia says:

A tram-train is a light-rail public transport system where trams are designed to run both on the tracks of an urban tramway network and on the existing railways for greater flexibility and convenience. The Karlsruhe model pioneered this concept in Germany, and it has since been adopted on the RijnGouweLijn in the Netherlands and in Kassel and Saarbrücken in Germany.

[Aidan]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but under what conditions are the different types of PT most effective ==> Trains v Tram/Trains v Trams v Road Buses v O-Bahn.

The question's not dumb at all, but it is a bit ambiguous.
When you say most effective, do you mean more effective than other conditions?
Or more effective than other modes?

One thing you have to keep in mind is that one of the most important determining factors should be the question of what's already there. Terrain and geological considerations etc could also have a major effect on modal choice.

Trains are best when there are a lot of people going in the same direction, particularly when speed is important. Tram-trains are best for where high capacity isn't needed and electrified railways already exist but don't serve enough of the places where the passengers want to go. And they're sometimes quite well suited to interurban services too. Trams are a medium capacity mode that can be adapted to a lot of different situations. O-bahns are best suited for linking a dense commercial area with a large area of low to medium density sprawl - particularly where most freight traffic is on a different axis. Road buses, despite being a bit less attractive to passengers, are usually best in other situations, but not always - firstly because, as I said, there are other local factors that influence what mode is best, and secondly because there are many specialist modes available.

[stumpjumper]

Buses can also manage tight turns and varying gradients, ie hills routes.

I was wondering about the single ticket machine per bus, and thought it was a cost issue, but the realised that the driver must supervise the machine - 1 'yes' click per passenger, or they must buy a valid ticket.

Since there are experts here - why hasn't the O-Bahn been copied anywhere around the world? (if in fact it hasn't)

Does it cover its hardware and running costs?

[PeFe]

Personally I think then reason the O-Bahn hasn't been copied in other parts of the world is that tram/light rail presents a far better alternative- higher capacity/easier upgrading of capacity i.e. more trams/more attractive to the travelling public. The O-Bahn is German technology but I think you will find they have abandoned it as a transport solution in Germany, all German cities over 80.000 have trams/light rail (source : Urbanrail.net) Also I believe that BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) which the the O-Bahn is probably the most efficient example of, becomes too limited as the patronage increases necessitating a switch to light rail/tram or metro. I give Adelaide's 0-Bahn 5 years before the SA government realises that a light rail corridor can move a far greater number of people connecting with bus services in the north-east suburbs, The current plan for exclusive O-Bahn lanes in the city is just a temporary solution and its shortcomings will be apparent in the next 5 years also
P.S. Moderators please move this thread to Transport/Infracstructure

[AtD]

There's a handful of other guided busways in the world, mostly in the UK as well as Japan and Germany. There's one under construction right now that will be longer than ours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gu ... ed_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_bus





There's other forms of guided bus around the world that use a centre rail rather than curbs.

An example from France. Love child of a tram and a trolley bus. It can drive off the track, has a steering wheel and rubber tyres.


At the end of the day it's just a glorified busway, and they're common all over the world. There's several in both Brisbane and Sydney.