News & Discussion: National Broadband Network

[rhino]

Kazakhstan?

[Vee]

An interesting, easy to read article weighing up the merits of the ALP NBN vs Coalition model.

Can Australia afford the Coalition's NBN (FTTN model)?
By Professor Rod Tucker, Director of Institute for a Broadband Enabled Society (BES)
University of Melbourne

Introductory paragraphs

Consumers know well that buying a cheaper product often costs more in the long term when the cheaper product has to be replaced. This is true of the Coalition’s vision for the National Broadband Network (NBN): it may cost less in the short term, but not in the long term.

The Coalition will save around A$14.6 billion by replacing Labor’s fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP) version of the NBN – which, as the name suggests, delivers fibre optic cable to directly to premises – with a cheaper, fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) alternative – which involves delivering optical fibre to a shared “cabinet” (or node), then connecting the cabinet to residential and business premises using existing copper telephone wires.

But careful analysis of the details of the Coalition’s NBN policy shows its FTTN network does not provide good value for money.

.....

Concluding paragraphs

Labor’s FTTP network will provide the necessary infrastructure for this expected expansion of the wireless network, but the Coalition’s lower-cost FTTN network will not.

Will the Coalition’s NBN provide value for money? Compared with Labor’s FTTP NBN, which will be easily upgradeable to ultra-broadband capacity when new applications come on line, the Coalition’s FTTN NBN is a short-term, limited-bandwidth solution.

At a whopping two-thirds of the cost of the vastly-superior FTTP NBN, the Coalition’s NBN stacks up as waste of money.

Read the whole article here:
http://theconversation.com/can-australi ... -nbn-17494
The Conversation

[Goodsy]

does anyone know what will happen to current FTTP contract if the Libs win? If construction is suppose to start within 1 year in my suburb will it still go ahead?

[drsmith]

does anyone know what will happen to current FTTP contract if the Libs win? If construction is suppose to start within 1 year in my suburb will it still go ahead?

To the best of my knowledge, existing contracts entered into won't be torn up, but that may not be of much help in identifying which specific suburbs will still retain the existing rollout.

The Libs policy documents are available from Malcolm Turnbull's site.

http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media ... h8fujaQ9aR

[[Shuz]]

Heard on the news / radio the other day that the Coalitions FTTN policy, plans to have nodes no more than 800m from households - if that is the case then why is Labor saying that it will cost upwards of $4000 - $5000 to connect to the premises (assuming that you are the furthest away and the first one on the street to do so)? This doesn't sound right? Surely it wouldn't cost nearly 5 grand just to lay fibre cable 800m? Aren't they meant to be going into the existing copper ducts which would be fairly cost effective (or so I would have thought?) - there'd really be no need for digging up streets / roads unless you actually live out on a farm or something?

[Vee]

Shuz, the Coalition 'fibre on demand' costs are quite considerable.
Two excellent articles, previously mentioned in this forum, provide more details and estimated costings to better understand the seemingly high fees for those who wish to obtain 'fibre-on-demand' rather than the FTTN under the Coalition model.

I recommend:
If you have access to The Australan paywalled article,
Coalition's NBN on-demand offer could see users hit for $4000
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/austral ... 6704552716

Some points from this article.
Costs for the alternative (to current NBN) Coalition's optional 'fibre on demand' upgrade include:
Costs for access to Telstra conduit (per metre) - if space is available - incr considerably with distance.
High maintenance costs of ageing copper.
'Terminating' a fibre connection fee (quite high)
Also costs escalate if tunnelling is required to create a new conduit. (Underboring alternative)
The article includes cost estimates from private contractors which you can read in the original article.

Secondly, the article by Prof Rod Tucker in The Conversation. (Extracts provided previously)
Another extract from this article below.

Unlike FTTN deployments elsewhere in the world, the Coalition’s business model requires that a full commercial price be paid for access to the copper network. It will likely be the most expensive FTTN deployment anywhere in the world.
...anecdotal evidence maintenance costs for the Telstra ageing copper network could be as high as A$1 billion a year.
Added to that, parts of the copper network will require remediation ...

The Coalition is offering a “fibre on demand” option to customers who need higher bandwidth than can be provided by the standard FTTN network. Fibre will be laid between the node and the customer’s premises on a case-by-case basis with the cost borne by the customer. But under this model there will be extra costs that NBNCo will incur.

Extra space will need to be reserved in the node cabinets to terminate the fibres and connect them to the exchange. In essence, there will be two parallel networks housed in the one cabinet.

In addition, the cabinets will need to contain equipment that provides telephone connectivity to each home. This equipment is located in the home in an FTTP network, but will most likely reside in the node in the Coalition’s network.

Read the whole article here:
http://theconversation.com/can-australi ... -nbn-17494

Technical gurus on this and other forums should be able to shed more light on the topic.

[zippySA]

Just a query on some of those "additional" costs:
- surely the FTTP option includes access to Telstra conduits - so both plans should be the same here
- surely the FTTP option requires tunnelling (or boring) of new conduit in the absence of conduit - so both plans should be the same here
- surely the FTTP option has high(er) costs for optic cable terminations

The only difference is where the cost currently sits - FTTP every tax payer pays for it up front, whether it is wanted or not, FTTN means those who want it pay for it will pay for it. I cannot see every house in Australia wishing to connect to FTTP immediately or even within its planned life - and before I get slammed (again) for ignoring how wonderful fibre to the home will be (enabling me to upload and download at simply extraordinary speeds which is going to make my current meaningless life so much more fulfilled as I will never need to speak directly to anyone ever again) - let me say, if it is sooooo incredible - then for those who want it, shell out your $4000 and go for it - your efficiency and life will be so much better that it is a small investment that no doubt will return your investment 10 fold within just a few years.

Friday afternoons!

[monotonehell]

I think we are focusing on the wrong point here.

It's not about the cost of "the extra mile". The current NBNco has that worked out with Telstra and the contractors, and yes we will all (as taxpayers) pay for this work to be done.

The point we are all missing here is that the Coalition's NBN plan has a huge disconnect. It speaks about the backbone network connecting to nodes in the street. And it speaks about retaining the copper network for the "extra mile". What it hasn't said anything about is how the nodes are expected to connect to the copper network - who's going to pay for all that connectivity? And now we're back at the same issue that Shuz, Vee and ZippySA are discussing above, except now the question is about the Coalition's plan.

[rev]

Mono, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but under Labor's NBN, fiber will replace our copper network. It's not just about high speed internet, but our telephone communications will also be on fiber?

[monotonehell]

Mono, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but under Labor's NBN, fiber will replace our copper network. It's not just about high speed internet, but our telephone communications will also be on fiber?

That's the impression that I got. Under the current NBN plans the old copper network is retired (and it REALLY needs to be). Am I wrong in the following?

Current NBN plan:
* Retire copper network which costs an estimated one billion a year just to maintain at its current poor and deteriorating standard.
* Build a fibre backbone for the Nation.
* Replace all local connections with fibre and inexpensive passive fibre junction boxes in existing pits. These will require almost no maintenance as they do not deteriorate or require power.
* Run connections to premises. (This is an expensive one off cost for each premise, but the cost is to be shared across the network.)
= All fibre network, no bottlenecks, synchronous speeds for data and voice telecommunications (upload and download).

Lib's alternate plan:
* Ask Telstra politely if they wouldn't mind us using the copper network and to continue maintaining it (at an even greater cost a year as most of it is in need of replacement).
* Build a fibre backbone for the Nation.
* Terminate the backbone at local connections to node cabinets. (These are large expensive cabinets that are the equivalent of a modern telephone exchange. They require power, cooling and backup batteries in case power fails. They also contain a lot of technology to convert fibre signals to ADSL to connect to individual premises.)
* Connect these nodes to individual copper connections .... somehow this has never been discussed as far as I can see. They'd need to take trunks of copper cables from pits (which are a mess and would need to be reworked) from the pits to the nodes. This is a major cost that I've never seen discussed or costed.
* Test each line for signal strength and reliability for ADSL service and install.
= Half and half network, bottlenecks, asynchronous data speeds, not suitable for voice telecommunications - they will remain on crackly analogue lines, pretty much the same service as we currently have.
OR
* If you choose to wear the cost yourself, get a fibre connection.
= Synchronous speeds for data and voice telecommunications (upload and download), but also the ongoing maintenance costs of the node cabinets.

I don't see any advantages in the Coalition's plan.

[Vee]

Two recent views of what could happen to the NBN if the Coalition wins the election.

Both very pessimistic and the prospect of the NBN, in its current form, being neutered fills me with dread. It really is essential infrastructure for the digital economy - for all Australians - richer and poorer, city/regions... business, health, education, jobs/lifestyle etc.

* NBN-lite took the NBN off the election agenda.
Steve J blog
http://stevej-on-nbn.blogspot.com.au/20 ... d-its.html

* Coalition NBN policy, post election
Sortius Is A Geek blog
http://www.sortius-is-a-geek.com/nbn-post-election/

[monotonehell]

* NBN-lite took the NBN off the election agenda.
Steve J blog
http://stevej-on-nbn.blogspot.com.au/20 ... d-its.html

* Coalition NBN policy, post election
Sortius Is A Geek blog
http://www.sortius-is-a-geek.com/nbn-post-election/

Pretty much my fears, Vee. We will be back to business as usual, while our networks deteriorate. Note for those "we don't need high speed broadband" people - the copper network also carries voice calls. Have you noticed the crackling on your line lately? The same deterioration happened in the US over the '80s and '90s on their copper network because it was a shared patchwork of several competing telcos all looking for the cheapest maintenance options.

We are currently in the middle of a period where information is power and commerce. We can not afford as a Nation to be left in the steam age.

[Vee]

Looks like the NBN is hotting up as an election issue.

No NBN for you - yet - if you already have old HFC cable, under Coalition.
Yikes, this is awful!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/ ... hv1m1.html

Australia's largest cities may receive no broadband upgrade until 2017 under the Coalition's current NBN policy, because households already have access to cable networks installed in the 1990s.

Cabled suburbs have a "pretty good service now", according to the opposition's communications spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull, and would be a lower priority than suburbs without any cable access.

The cables were installed to carry pay TV services but have since also provided broadband connections.

Hybrid fibre-coaxial [HFC] cable networks installed by Telstra to deliver Foxtel, Optus and some smaller operators cover most of Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, parts of inner Darwin, Perth, Adelaide and the Gold Coast, and regional towns of Geelong, Mildura and Ballarat in Victoria.

"Our current plan is to roll out fibre-to-the-node in all the fixed-line footprint. You can assume that we are going to build over the HFC [network] – it is just not a matter of priority," Mr Turnbull told Fairfax Media.

"As to what happens to the HFC areas longer term, that is going to depend on the negotiations with Telstra and Optus, so there are a few options there."

The Coalition would delay fibre-to-the-node upgrades in cable areas until the 2017-18 financial year, according to its policy paper. This contrasts with Labor's current NBN policy, which has already started building fibre-to-the-home connections in areas served by cable, with a view to replacing all fixed connections at 93 per cent of premises by 2021.

With cable networks already capable of delivering broadband speeds in the Coalition's target of 50 megabits per second [Mbps], it is unknown if these suburbs would ever receive an upgrade under a Coalition government.

More:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/ ... hv1m1.html

Other:
A new research report studies the benefits of super fast broadband. NBN for Australia, moving into a rapidly emerging digital economy.
Very interesting!!
ABC News item.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-04/r ... bn/4932976

Download Full Report mentioned above.
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/p ... _Doc_8.pdf

[monotonehell]

Best taken with a pinch of salt, but...

Households will be $3,800 richer by 2020 thanks to speedy broadband like NBN: report
Australian households would be about $3,800 a year better off in 2020 with super-fast broadband like Labor's National Broadband Network (NBN), according to new research. Independent forecaster Deloitte Access Economics, which was commissioned by the Government to evaluate the benefits high-speed broadband would bring to families, notes the NBN would help make the nation a "fully digital economy".

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-04/r ... bn/4932976

[rev]

Looks like the NBN is hotting up as an election issue.

No NBN for you - yet - if you already have old HFC cable, under Coalition.
Yikes, this is awful!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/ ... hv1m1.html

Australia's largest cities may receive no broadband upgrade until 2017 under the Coalition's current NBN policy, because households already have access to cable networks installed in the 1990s.

Cabled suburbs have a "pretty good service now", according to the opposition's communications spokesman, Malcolm Turnbull, and would be a lower priority than suburbs without any cable access.

The cables were installed to carry pay TV services but have since also provided broadband connections.

Hybrid fibre-coaxial [HFC] cable networks installed by Telstra to deliver Foxtel, Optus and some smaller operators cover most of Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane, parts of inner Darwin, Perth, Adelaide and the Gold Coast, and regional towns of Geelong, Mildura and Ballarat in Victoria.

"Our current plan is to roll out fibre-to-the-node in all the fixed-line footprint. You can assume that we are going to build over the HFC [network] – it is just not a matter of priority," Mr Turnbull told Fairfax Media.

"As to what happens to the HFC areas longer term, that is going to depend on the negotiations with Telstra and Optus, so there are a few options there."

The Coalition would delay fibre-to-the-node upgrades in cable areas until the 2017-18 financial year, according to its policy paper. This contrasts with Labor's current NBN policy, which has already started building fibre-to-the-home connections in areas served by cable, with a view to replacing all fixed connections at 93 per cent of premises by 2021.

With cable networks already capable of delivering broadband speeds in the Coalition's target of 50 megabits per second [Mbps], it is unknown if these suburbs would ever receive an upgrade under a Coalition government.

More:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/it-pro/ ... hv1m1.html

Other:
A new research report studies the benefits of super fast broadband. NBN for Australia, moving into a rapidly emerging digital economy.
Very interesting!!
ABC News item.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-04/r ... bn/4932976

Download Full Report mentioned above.
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/__data/assets/p ... _Doc_8.pdf

That is one thing that does piss me off about the NBN rollout.
I live in an area where cable is not available, but areas with cable are scheduled to get NBN within the next 3 years(or already U/C), while areas without cable aren't.