News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[rubberman]

There is roughly a 250 metre gap between ARS and KW St. There are no benefits from having it go under this street in the very centre, compared to having it 50 metres to the right. Despite the lack of any foresight, trains can make this turn with ease.

It might be ideal to ensure that the trains can turn right as well! Raising the height of the KW/North Tce intersection could be a solution to the current debacle, which seems like it was just a cheap excuse to derail Labor's plan of a tram network.

It still makes no sense as to why they can turn left, but not right.

The right turn was a daft idea. It worked in the olden days because trams had absolute right of way to enable the intersection to clear. That worked because of fewer cars. Nowadays, if you gave trams absolute priority, traffic would bank up along North Terrace and King William Street unacceptably.

The "technical reasons" are easily overcome using at least three different alternatives.

[MT269]

So it's better to waste money to look for false alternatives than the reveal the truth? Not having a dig at you by any means. But there was a mention of specially designed trams which were engineered to tackle this politically difficult terrain.

Public transport vehicles are not made of 0x0mm mass objects which somehow manage to flow through any stationary object as though it's not there. I can't predict delays to traffic quadrupling due to one extra cycle. It's a shame that the LNP did not have the balls to reveal why a right turn was too complicated.

But there are many other unanswered questions in which the truth won't be unveiled, in regards to infrastructure/PT. Perhaps by 2156, the issues with backwards thinking, and terrible planning may just become too much of a burden, and the pollies might actually teleport into reality and think sensibly for once.

[rubberman]

So it's better to waste money to look for false alternatives than the reveal the truth? Not having a dig at you by any means. But there was a mention of specially designed trams which were engineered to tackle this politically difficult terrain.

Public transport vehicles are not made of 0x0mm mass objects which somehow manage to flow through any stationary object as though it's not there. I can't predict delays to traffic quadrupling due to one extra cycle. It's a shame that the LNP did not have the balls to reveal why a right turn was too complicated.

But there are many other unanswered questions in which the truth won't be unveiled, in regards to infrastructure/PT. Perhaps by 2156, the issues with backwards thinking, and terrible planning may just become too much of a burden, and the pollies might actually teleport into reality and think sensibly for once.

I'd suspect that apart from the traffic difficulties, the LNP didn't want to invest in trams at all. Their loop and right turn was just a tactic to neutralise the ALP's scheme. Since they won the seat of Adelaide by 400 votes in 2018, it's a tactic that worked...till it didn't in 2022. That the right turn was a daft idea traffic wise wasn't a good excuse, but saying it was expensive and therefore financially responsible to abandon it was the political calculation. Buying trams that worked on the intersection was one of the obvious solutions. They aren't all that special, the technology has been around for a while.

[MT269]

Are you to enlighten in regards to the supposed 3 alternatives to this predicament? I am curious. It's not exactly at the top of Mt Everest...

[Llessur2002]

The question is does the tram actually need to turn right here? According to Labor's original route plan then no. In which case why bother?

Grand junctions are pretty rare in networks - just take a look at Melbourne CBD on Google maps.

[Nathan]

The question is does the tram actually need to turn right here? According to Labor's original route plan then no. In which case why bother?

Grand junctions are pretty rare in networks - just take a look at Melbourne CBD on Google maps.

Exactly. Especially when after future extensions, it would likely resolve as seperate north/south and east-west routes. The idea that there needs to be a direct tram from Point A to every other possible stop on the network is unrealistic, and when transfers are easy adding at most a single stop to the journey.

[rubberman]

Are you to enlighten in regards to the supposed 3 alternatives to this predicament? I am curious. It's not exactly at the top of Mt Everest...

The obvious ones are:

New trams would be required for the circle line. So, simply buy ones that can take a smaller radius curve.

Set the curve about 200mm Eastward. It then doesn't interfere with the existing point blades. (That was the problem with the proposal).

Go back to the Labor route.

[rubberman]

The question is does the tram actually need to turn right here? According to Labor's original route plan then no. In which case why bother?

Grand junctions are pretty rare in networks - just take a look at Melbourne CBD on Google maps.

It was proposed as something "better" than Labor's plan. No reason. Just like the NBN, just different.

[MT269]

Is there any chance whatsoever of trams returning to Norwood, now that the LNP is finally out of office for a few years?

I think a route along KW Rd where the 200 bus route goes could prove useful. But it has to be able to outpace the current bus service. It is quite a bit quicker on a bus from south of Greenhill Rd to stop X2 just north of Currie/Grenfell St than a tram.

[rubberman]

Is there any chance whatsoever of trams returning to Norwood, now that the LNP is finally out of office for a few years?

I think a route along KW Rd where the 200 bus route goes could prove useful. But it has to be able to outpace the current bus service. It is quite a bit quicker on a bus from south of Greenhill Rd to stop X2 just north of Currie/Grenfell St than a tram.

That was proposed by Labor in 2018. Unfortunately it was not a winning proposal. Further, the present Labor Government has other priorities in health. Finally, where there was money promised in 2018, by Federal Labor if they won, that didn't happen. Now, there's a trillion in debt and two elections lost by parties promising trams.

I'd say the likelihood of any tram extensions are zero for the foreseeable future. There's no money, and people voted for no-tram parties. It's democracy. We had a small window of opportunity. We voted for no-tram parties. No money, no political support.

Getting back on topic in the rail forum, I'd say the tight financial situation and focus on aged care, NDIS and childcare will mean very little money for infrastructure. Much of that will be gobbled up by Inland Rail. So, much of the stuff like further electrification or new routes is unlikely. As for a city underground loop? Can anyone realistically say that the Liberals or the present Labor Government are even thinking about it?

[claybro]

Is there any chance whatsoever of trams returning to Norwood, now that the LNP is finally out of office for a few years?

I think a route along KW Rd where the 200 bus route goes could prove useful. But it has to be able to outpace the current bus service. It is quite a bit quicker on a bus from south of Greenhill Rd to stop X2 just north of Currie/Grenfell St than a tram.

That was proposed by Labor in 2018. Unfortunately it was not a winning proposal. Further, the present Labor Government has other priorities in health. Finally, where there was money promised in 2018, by Federal Labor if they won, that didn't happen. Now, there's a trillion in debt and two elections lost by parties promising trams.

I'd say the likelihood of any tram extensions are zero for the foreseeable future. There's no money, and people voted for no-tram parties. It's democracy. We had a small window of opportunity. We voted for no-tram parties. No money, no political support.

Getting back on topic in the rail forum, I'd say the tight financial situation and focus on aged care, NDIS and childcare will mean very little money for infrastructure. Much of that will be gobbled up by Inland Rail. So, much of the stuff like further electrification or new routes is unlikely. As for a city underground loop? Can anyone realistically say that the Liberals or the present Labor Government are even thinking about it?

Both correct assessments. The tram is unnessesarily slow from South Terrace, a point which has been made on multiple occasions here. Until it is sped up in general, people wont see the point of replacing buses with trams.
On the need/want for further metro rail upgrades...the momentum is lost, the window of cheap money has closed. Expertise in labour is hard to find further pushing up costs. All federally funded projects will need to demonstrate a very clear benefit over doing nothing. Looking at the Victorian example, there is now much disquiet over in Melbourne as to the cost of metro and regional rail projects at the apparent expense of the hospital system and ironically the ambulance and triple zero mess, which is largely what bought down the SA government. This will be the case until the economy hits the skids, and government goes looking for employment generating infrastructure projects.
RE: the TRAM v TRAIN threads, as they so often seem to merge on topic, would it not be simpler to merge them into one METRO RAIL thread?

[gnrc_louis]

Is there any chance whatsoever of trams returning to Norwood, now that the LNP is finally out of office for a few years?

I think a route along KW Rd where the 200 bus route goes could prove useful. But it has to be able to outpace the current bus service. It is quite a bit quicker on a bus from south of Greenhill Rd to stop X2 just north of Currie/Grenfell St than a tram.

That was proposed by Labor in 2018. Unfortunately it was not a winning proposal. Further, the present Labor Government has other priorities in health. Finally, where there was money promised in 2018, by Federal Labor if they won, that didn't happen. Now, there's a trillion in debt and two elections lost by parties promising trams.

I'd say the likelihood of any tram extensions are zero for the foreseeable future. There's no money, and people voted for no-tram parties. It's democracy. We had a small window of opportunity. We voted for no-tram parties. No money, no political support.

Getting back on topic in the rail forum, I'd say the tight financial situation and focus on aged care, NDIS and childcare will mean very little money for infrastructure. Much of that will be gobbled up by Inland Rail. So, much of the stuff like further electrification or new routes is unlikely. As for a city underground loop? Can anyone realistically say that the Liberals or the present Labor Government are even thinking about it?

Both correct assessments. The tram is unnessesarily slow from South Terrace, a point which has been made on multiple occasions here. Until it is sped up in general, people wont see the point of replacing buses with trams.
On the need/want for further metro rail upgrades...the momentum is lost, the window of cheap money has closed. Expertise in labour is hard to find further pushing up costs. All federally funded projects will need to demonstrate a very clear benefit over doing nothing. Looking at the Victorian example, there is now much disquiet over in Melbourne as to the cost of metro and regional rail projects at the apparent expense of the hospital system and ironically the ambulance and triple zero mess, which is largely what bought down the SA government. This will be the case until the economy hits the skids, and government goes looking for employment generating infrastructure projects.
RE: the TRAM v TRAIN threads, as they so often seem to merge on topic, would it not be simpler to merge them into one METRO RAIL thread?

The “Much disquiet” is coming primarily from the opposition in the lead up to the upcoming state election there. It would be interesting to get a sense of how the broader Victorian public feel about these large rail projects, rather than the idiotic Matthew Guy. If the most recent newspoll is any indication, the issue isn’t really cutting through.

[claybro]

The “Much disquiet” is coming primarily from the opposition in the lead up to the upcoming state election there. It would be interesting to get a sense of how the broader Victorian public feel about these large rail projects, rather than the idiotic Matthew Guy. If the most recent newspoll is any indication, the issue isn’t really cutting through.

Yeh...i get it...Libs bad, Lab good.-If that all you took away from the entire post......

[gnrc_louis]

The “Much disquiet” is coming primarily from the opposition in the lead up to the upcoming state election there. It would be interesting to get a sense of how the broader Victorian public feel about these large rail projects, rather than the idiotic Matthew Guy. If the most recent newspoll is any indication, the issue isn’t really cutting through.

Yeh...i get it...Libs bad, Lab good.-If that all you took away from the entire post......

That’s an odd interpretation you’ve made from my post. But for the record, I don’t think Victorian Labor are particularly good, though I think the Victorian Liberals are comparatively worse. I’m also broadly supportive of rail infrastructure investment and would like to see more of it here.

The point I was making though is it’s hard to know how the broader Victorian public feel about these rail projects - judging from the August newspoll, perhaps broadly supportive. Time will tell.

[claybro]

The “Much disquiet” is coming primarily from the opposition in the lead up to the upcoming state election there. It would be interesting to get a sense of how the broader Victorian public feel about these large rail projects, rather than the idiotic Matthew Guy. If the most recent newspoll is any indication, the issue isn’t really cutting through.

Yeh...i get it...Libs bad, Lab good.-If that all you took away from the entire post......

That’s an odd interpretation you’ve made from my post. But for the record, I don’t think Victorian Labor are particularly good, though I think the Victorian Liberals are comparatively worse. I’m also broadly supportive of rail infrastructure investment and would like to see more of it here.

The point I was making though is it’s hard to know how the broader Victorian public feel about these rail projects - judging from the August newspoll, perhaps broadly supportive. Time will tell.