News & Discussion: Adelaide Metro Trains

[Spotto]

To me, the bigger questions are why we would want commuter rail from these extreme outer suburbs and county towns to feed in to Adelaide City. If it's available, the "induced demand" argument will fill these outer suburbs with people intending to commute to Adelaide, then complaining about how long they spend wasted time commuting. High frequency local buses to employment and service centres might encourage people to live and work closer together. Residential buildings in Bowden and Parkside are better placed for Adelaide workers, where there are already frequent short duration commuter services.

When living in the suburbs is getting more and more expensive and inaccessible to first-home buyers, the only natural way for things to go is outward.

Bowden-style living also isn't suitable for all people, some might want a mid-sized home with a fair backyard to raise a family and will happily sacrifice commute time to work to achieve their Australian dream.

Not advocating for endless urban sprawl, but this is the reality for many people.

[SBD]

To me, the bigger questions are why we would want commuter rail from these extreme outer suburbs and county towns to feed in to Adelaide City. If it's available, the "induced demand" argument will fill these outer suburbs with people intending to commute to Adelaide, then complaining about how long they spend wasted time commuting. High frequency local buses to employment and service centres might encourage people to live and work closer together. Residential buildings in Bowden and Parkside are better placed for Adelaide workers, where there are already frequent short duration commuter services.

When living in the suburbs is getting more and more expensive and inaccessible to first-home buyers, the only natural way for things to go is outward.

Bowden-style living also isn't suitable for all people, some might want a mid-sized home with a fair backyard to raise a family and will happily sacrifice commute time to work to achieve their Australian dream.

Not advocating for endless urban sprawl, but this is the reality for many people.

I have experience. I grew up in an inner country town, my first year at uni involved the 07:12 bus to Adelaide and the 17:35 bus from Wakefield Street as there were no other choices. After that, I bought a car and had a 24 minute drive to the rim of the Adelaide Metro network (or whatever it was called then) to be able to choose start and finish times. When I finished uni, I had a 75 minute driving commute for almost two years, before we built a house in a new suburb 22 minutes drive to work (or over an hour cross suburb public transport).

That’s the background I bring to advocating planning decisions to help people live and work within short commutes. Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

[Nort]

To me, the bigger questions are why we would want commuter rail from these extreme outer suburbs and county towns to feed in to Adelaide City. If it's available, the "induced demand" argument will fill these outer suburbs with people intending to commute to Adelaide, then complaining about how long they spend wasted time commuting. High frequency local buses to employment and service centres might encourage people to live and work closer together. Residential buildings in Bowden and Parkside are better placed for Adelaide workers, where there are already frequent short duration commuter services.

When living in the suburbs is getting more and more expensive and inaccessible to first-home buyers, the only natural way for things to go is outward.

Bowden-style living also isn't suitable for all people, some might want a mid-sized home with a fair backyard to raise a family and will happily sacrifice commute time to work to achieve their Australian dream.

Not advocating for endless urban sprawl, but this is the reality for many people.

I have experience. I grew up in an inner country town, my first year at uni involved the 07:12 bus to Adelaide and the 17:35 bus from Wakefield Street as there were no other choices. After that, I bought a car and had a 24 minute drive to the rim of the Adelaide Metro network (or whatever it was called then) to be able to choose start and finish times. When I finished uni, I had a 75 minute driving commute for almost two years, before we built a house in a new suburb 22 minutes drive to work (or over an hour cross suburb public transport).

That’s the background I bring to advocating planning decisions to help people live and work within short commutes. Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

I had it hard so others should as well is a terrible argument for planning purposes. Your own anecdote demonstrates how making it harder will often not give the behavior you want, but just limit opportunities.

[SBD]

When living in the suburbs is getting more and more expensive and inaccessible to first-home buyers, the only natural way for things to go is outward.

Bowden-style living also isn't suitable for all people, some might want a mid-sized home with a fair backyard to raise a family and will happily sacrifice commute time to work to achieve their Australian dream.

Not advocating for endless urban sprawl, but this is the reality for many people.

I have experience. I grew up in an inner country town, my first year at uni involved the 07:12 bus to Adelaide and the 17:35 bus from Wakefield Street as there were no other choices. After that, I bought a car and had a 24 minute drive to the rim of the Adelaide Metro network (or whatever it was called then) to be able to choose start and finish times. When I finished uni, I had a 75 minute driving commute for almost two years, before we built a house in a new suburb 22 minutes drive to work (or over an hour cross suburb public transport).

That’s the background I bring to advocating planning decisions to help people live and work within short commutes. Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

I had it hard so others should as well is a terrible argument for planning purposes. Your own anecdote demonstrates how making it harder will often not give the behavior you want, but just limit opportunities.

No. My anecdote shows that it takes time to change behaviour and address. My uni commute was just short enough to do it without moving to city student accommodation. My work commute was not sustainable long term, and even country commuter rail was not going to make the cross-Adelaide commute palatable. The completed NSM would probably make me consider using it instead of Portrush Road. People who live in the new Mount Barker developments should work in different places from people who live at Riverlea Park. Why make it attractive for people to live south and work north or vice versa?

[Eurostar]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

[abc]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

[ChillyPhilly]

I have experience. I grew up in an inner country town, my first year at uni involved the 07:12 bus to Adelaide and the 17:35 bus from Wakefield Street as there were no other choices. After that, I bought a car and had a 24 minute drive to the rim of the Adelaide Metro network (or whatever it was called then) to be able to choose start and finish times. When I finished uni, I had a 75 minute driving commute for almost two years, before we built a house in a new suburb 22 minutes drive to work (or over an hour cross suburb public transport).

That’s the background I bring to advocating planning decisions to help people live and work within short commutes. Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

I had it hard so others should as well is a terrible argument for planning purposes. Your own anecdote demonstrates how making it harder will often not give the behavior you want, but just limit opportunities.

No. My anecdote shows that it takes time to change behaviour and address. My uni commute was just short enough to do it without moving to city student accommodation. My work commute was not sustainable long term, and even country commuter rail was not going to make the cross-Adelaide commute palatable. The completed NSM would probably make me consider using it instead of Portrush Road. People who live in the new Mount Barker developments should work in different places from people who live at Riverlea Park. Why make it attractive for people to live south and work north or vice versa?

Anecdotes like yours are important.

I am still a fan of new rail links to towns outside of urban (sprawl) Adelaide. I believe there is potential for Gawler to become its own hub, with spurs feeding north and east. Similar can apply to Two Wells, Virginia and Riverlea with Salisbury.

We need to be more aggressive with planning policy and combine land use with infrastructure and service planning.

[dbl96]

Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

Of course it would be great if most people lived and worked locally. But it would be wishful thinking to imagine that all the people moving into Riverlea, Two Wells and the rest will start doing this if only we try to punish them for living there by denying them proper public services. All that is likely to do is two things:
1. Encourage everyone to drive everywhere
2. Create isolated communities of deprivation

As I've said before, I don't agree with these areas having been zoned for urban development in the first place, but that horse has bolted. The fact is that these areas are going to be home to substantial populations, whether we like it or not. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past by refusing to provide them with proper services. Better to at least plan the corridors for proper public transportation infrastructure now, before the land is built over, than to pretend that there is no problem until Port Wakefield road is a carpark and expensive tunnels are the only solution.

Your argument seems at least partly based on the assumption that the purpose of the railway would be long distance transport, in and out of the Adelaide CBD. While that will no doubt comprise a substantial portion of the ridership, the railway will also be invaluable for cross-town and cross-suburban connections. A Y-shaped line from Salisbury to Two Wells and Riverlea, with the fork in the line at Virginia, would allow for easy connections between Riverlea and Virginia, Virginia and Two Wells, and with an interchange at Virginia, between Riverlea and Two Wells. In the mid-distance, the line would connect Virginia, Riverlea and Two Wells with Salisbury, and (interchanging at Salisbury) with Elizabeth. I would expect a substantial part of the demand for ridership would be for relatively local trips, and the line should be designed to accommodate this.

[SBD]

Long commutes should be unpleasant enough to encourage better choices, which take time to change. More cross-suburban public transport would help people choose it. People who live in outer areas should work there, or people who work in outer suburbs should live there.

Just like new freeways, new railways will make people think they can commute further. There are social benefits of living and working in a smaller community, too.

Of course it would be great if most people lived and worked locally. But it would be wishful thinking to imagine that all the people moving into Riverlea, Two Wells and the rest will start doing this if only we try to punish them for living there by denying them proper public services. All that is likely to do is two things:
1. Encourage everyone to drive everywhere
2. Create isolated communities of deprivation

As I've said before, I don't agree with these areas having been zoned for urban development in the first place, but that horse has bolted. The fact is that these areas are going to be home to substantial populations, whether we like it or not. Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past by refusing to provide them with proper services. Better to at least plan the corridors for proper public transportation infrastructure now, before the land is built over, than to pretend that there is no problem until Port Wakefield road is a carpark and expensive tunnels are the only solution.

Your argument seems at least partly based on the assumption that the purpose of the railway would be long distance transport, in and out of the Adelaide CBD. While that will no doubt comprise a substantial portion of the ridership, the railway will also be invaluable for cross-town and cross-suburban connections. A Y-shaped line from Salisbury to Two Wells and Riverlea, with the fork in the line at Virginia, would allow for easy connections between Riverlea and Virginia, Virginia and Two Wells, and with an interchange at Virginia, between Riverlea and Two Wells. In the mid-distance, the line would connect Virginia, Riverlea and Two Wells with Salisbury, and (interchanging at Salisbury) with Elizabeth. I would expect a substantial part of the demand for ridership would be for relatively local trips, and the line should be designed to accommodate this.

I am also concerned that a lot of productive farmland - especially market garden/fruit and veg growing - is being zoned and used for housing.

My concern is that suburban rail services (high frequency, no food or toilet etc) continuing Adelaide's hub-and-spoke route model will perpetuate the assumption that outer suburbs should be dormitories for people who work in Adelaide CBD.

Your response appears to assume people choose where to build a house before or independently of choosing where to work. My anecdote is the reverse - I chose to live a shorter drive from where I worked, not the other way round.

Riverlea to Elizabeth is currently 22 minutes drive (Google maps) or 30 minutes on public transport (for someone who lives at the bus stop), with the additional problem that I have missed the last bus for today (last 450 bus on the current timetable is 2:49pm) so I wouldn't get there until 06:53 tomorrow.

Branches in the rail routes (as your suggestions of Salisbury and Virginia) would help for some adjacent cross-suburb routes. Adelaide Metro currently has branches like this for Grange and Flinders, and soon Port Dock. It previously had them for Hendon, Northfield, Penfield as well as cross-suburban links Dry Creek - Port Adelaide and Finsbury (Woodville-Gillman). It's unlikely that train to Salisbury then change to get to Elizabeth would compete on time with the current drive or bus, even worse if the destination was in Gawler.

[SBD]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

We could encourage people to live in those places by providing the necessary employment and services in those regional cities.

I don't remember what was attempted and why Monarto failed in the 1970s. The MFP failed in the 1990s in part because it was too close to Adelaide, and in part because the government wasn't really committed to it. Elizabeth seems to have worked in the 1950s because it provided what people needed - affordable housing, local employment, health and education. It eventually got swallowed by Adelaide anyway. Whyalla and Port Lincoln both used to have much bigger industrial bases than they have now. Services there have not kept up with what increasing standards of city living expect and require.

[abc]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

We could encourage people to live in those places by providing the necessary employment and services in those regional cities.

I don't remember what was attempted and why Monarto failed in the 1970s. The MFP failed in the 1990s in part because it was too close to Adelaide, and in part because the government wasn't really committed to it. Elizabeth seems to have worked in the 1950s because it provided what people needed - affordable housing, local employment, health and education. It eventually got swallowed by Adelaide anyway. Whyalla and Port Lincoln both used to have much bigger industrial bases than they have now. Services there have not kept up with what increasing standards of city living expect and require.

Prior to the ongoing recession of the Japanese economy and the rise of China, Japan had quite a lot of money to invest on foreign infrastructure.

The MFP failed because it was ultimately a scam. Originally it was a concept that was supposed to be constructed on the Gold Coast as Japanese funded business park, but when Gold Coast couldn't secure a site South Australia stepped in a proposed a site on a literal dump. The Japanese on viewing the site pulled out and it was never realised. After much media hype and disappointment the state government at the time proposed a scaled down locally funded version to be constructed at Mawson Lakes, which was really nothing more than a housing development, a main street and an extension of the University facilities.

Monarto was a pie in the sky which was proposed at a time when South Australian population projections were mistakenly overestimated (by a lot) in the early 70s, and once again this time prior to the rise of Asia and just prior to the deindustrialisation of Australia. It was thought that a satellite city was needed to accommodate the massive rise in population forecast for the Adelaide area over the next 20 years. It didn't take long before the writing was on the wall and this was abandoned which angered numerous farmers who were thrown off their land for this development that never happened.

[kaska]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

Embracing full remote work. Starting with a lot of government jobs, and giving incentives to companies that do the same

[abc]

Rather than build new areas in outskirts of Adelaide I think we need to build up and encourage people to live in regional cities instead , for example Murray Bridge and Wallaroo.

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

Embracing full remote work. Starting with a lot of government jobs, and giving incentives to companies that do the same

sounds inefficient to me

[Patrick_27]

and how would you encourage people to live in those places?

Embracing full remote work. Starting with a lot of government jobs, and giving incentives to companies that do the same

sounds inefficient to me

It works for East coast. Regional rail services are the backbone of this.

[abc]

Embracing full remote work. Starting with a lot of government jobs, and giving incentives to companies that do the same

sounds inefficient to me

It works for East coast. Regional rail services are the backbone of this.

there's 8 million people living on the east coast