News & Discussion: Electricity Infrastructure

[rubberman]

The other positive thing about these small modular reactors is that battery technology is now good enough to make them practical.

Larger, grid scale, reactors have a huge problem in that they need to run 24/7 to be economic. When prices are already zero or negative during the day, how could a nuclear reactor ever be economic? However, a smaller reactor, coupled to batteries, can run 24/7 charging those batteries, choosing not to discharge during the day when prices are low, and discharge at night when prices are higher.

Now, by 2039, batteries should not only be more efficient and cheaper, there should be more of them round, making it easy for smr investors to find battery owners to work with.

I can certainly see a place for these 5MW smrs in smaller remote towns. Certainly, they are right sized for places like Alice Springs or Mt Gambier and smaller. We have a lot of those smaller towns in Australia which are currently not that economic to supply power to.

Still, 2039 is a way off, and we have some immediate problems with grid scale coal plants coming off line. These smrs are interesting, but not relevant to those immediate problems.

A 5MW SMR produces less power than a modern wind turbine. Given that a town's load varies by time of day and time of year, the same kind of problems but in the other direction would arise from a constant 5MW output as from a variable output wind turbine. Perhaps they will each come with a small hydrogen electrolyser to provide fuel for mobile consumers (cars/trucks/tractors) at times when they are generating excess power.

Exactly. That's why batteries are the key to both of these technologies. Or, as you say, energy storage in the form of a hydrogen electrolyser. It will be interesting to see what batteries and hydrogen technology look like in 12 years when the SMRs start becoming available.

[PeFe]

wind turbines and solar panels wont cut it for critical infrastructure

Amazon follows Google in taking the nuclear option to power data centres

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/ ... ta-centres

No costings for Google's small nuclear project......that's because it's nuclear "folly" not nuclear power.....there is not even a concrete proposal for a smr.
The investment is only seed money for a proposed smr project.

Meanwhile back in the real world.....yesterday South Australia achieved another renewables record. 112% of electricity demand generated by rooftop panels alone....yes no large solar farms or wind farms involved in this number.

And critical infrastructure all worked well.....if there is no wind or sun batteries will do the job at one sixth the price of nuclear.

Rooftop solar reaches stunning new record of 112.9 per cent of state demand



The growth of rooftop solar PV continues to have a massive impact on the grid, and nowhere more so than in South Australia where, on Saturday, it reached a stunning new record of 112.9 per cent of state demand.

The new record was reached, according to data provider GPE NEMLog, at 1.15pm (AEST) on Saturday, and easily beat the previous record of 101.8 per cent that was set on New Year’s Eve in 2023.

The new peak for rooftop solar caused other records to fall – most notably operational demand (minus 205 MW), market demand (231 MW), and network demand (194 MW).

Rooftop solar was able to reach such levels – and push the various demand managements into negative territory – because the state was able to export nearly 400 MW of surplus power to Victoria.

At the time of the record, rooftop solar was producing more than 1,700 MW. Large scale solar and wind were providing another 115 MW, while fossil fuels – just two gas units that were told to run by the market operator to provide system strength and other grid services – accounted for just 80 MW.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/rooftop-sol ... te-demand/

[SBD]

wind turbines and solar panels wont cut it for critical infrastructure

Amazon follows Google in taking the nuclear option to power data centres

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/ ... ta-centres

No costings for Google's small nuclear project......that's because it's nuclear "folly" not nuclear power.....there is not even a concrete proposal for a smr.
The investment is only seed money for a proposed smr project.

Meanwhile back in the real world.....yesterday South Australia achieved another renewables record. 112% of electricity demand generated by rooftop panels alone....yes no large solar farms or wind farms involved in this number.

And critical infrastructure all worked well.....if there is no wind or sun batteries will do the job at one sixth the price of nuclear.

Rooftop solar reaches stunning new record of 112.9 per cent of state demand



The growth of rooftop solar PV continues to have a massive impact on the grid, and nowhere more so than in South Australia where, on Saturday, it reached a stunning new record of 112.9 per cent of state demand.

The new record was reached, according to data provider GPE NEMLog, at 1.15pm (AEST) on Saturday, and easily beat the previous record of 101.8 per cent that was set on New Year’s Eve in 2023.

The new peak for rooftop solar caused other records to fall – most notably operational demand (minus 205 MW), market demand (231 MW), and network demand (194 MW).

Rooftop solar was able to reach such levels – and push the various demand managements into negative territory – because the state was able to export nearly 400 MW of surplus power to Victoria.

At the time of the record, rooftop solar was producing more than 1,700 MW. Large scale solar and wind were providing another 115 MW, while fossil fuels – just two gas units that were told to run by the market operator to provide system strength and other grid services – accounted for just 80 MW.

Full article : https://reneweconomy.com.au/rooftop-sol ... te-demand/

I wonder what the sudden spike in demand was at about 11am when the export suddenly became import for a few minutes. [edited - first phrased as drop in generation before I noticed the top of the chart spiked up]

There was also news last week that AGL successfully shut down the Bayswater coal plant from 10am to 3pm, as a first demonstration that "baseload" might be able to become a thing of the past. I don't understand the physics of the issue, but both AGL and AEMO seem to be excited by the achievement "...without damaging anything very much."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-13/ ... /104461504

[abc]

why would you want to open a business in South Australia?

[rubberman]

why would you want to open a business in South Australia?

Obviously, people selling electricity.

According to the last report by the Australian Energy Regulator, the highest wholesale price for power was NSW...not SA.

So, if SA has the highest retail price, as you have posted, someone is making a great profit from South Australia.

This is what successful businesses do. They buy cheap and sell high.

It's not the concern of private companies whether their high prices help or hinder South Australia. Not much to be done about it.

[SBD]

why would you want to open a business in South Australia?

Obviously, people selling electricity.

According to the last report by the Australian Energy Regulator, the highest wholesale price for power was NSW...not SA.

So, if SA has the highest retail price, as you have posted, someone is making a great profit from South Australia.

This is what successful businesses do. They buy cheap and sell high.

It's not the concern of private companies whether their high prices help or hinder South Australia. Not much to be done about it.

At least one retailer charges a premium to guarantee that they are selling renewable-sourced electricity. It isn't clear to me how they justify that extra charge.

The general reason for retail prices being high in SA seems to be due to the need to hedge against occasional very high price spikes. Presumably these will become less frequent with more wind turbines being added to the system over the next few years. Maybe a new retailer will come in who decides not to hedge, and offer rates at a serious discount to current rates. I'm not sure if smart meters can have supply cut off for 30 minutes at a time on rotation if that retailer's unhedged input price exceeds $300/MW a few times a year.

[abc]

SA doesn't need to produce any energy at all at those prices... there is margin there for an energy wholesaler to buy electricity from interstate at retail prices and sell at a profit in SA for under the current retail price.

This is the folly of the 'renewables' myth.

[rubberman]

why would you want to open a business in South Australia?

Obviously, people selling electricity.

According to the last report by the Australian Energy Regulator, the highest wholesale price for power was NSW...not SA.

So, if SA has the highest retail price, as you have posted, someone is making a great profit from South Australia.

This is what successful businesses do. They buy cheap and sell high.

It's not the concern of private companies whether their high prices help or hinder South Australia. Not much to be done about it.

At least one retailer charges a premium to guarantee that they are selling renewable-sourced electricity. It isn't clear to me how they justify that extra charge.

The general reason for retail prices being high in SA seems to be due to the need to hedge against occasional very high price spikes. Presumably these will become less frequent with more wind turbines being added to the system over the next few years. Maybe a new retailer will come in who decides not to hedge, and offer rates at a serious discount to current rates. I'm not sure if smart meters can have supply cut off for 30 minutes at a time on rotation if that retailer's unhedged input price exceeds $300/MW a few times a year.

They are private companies. Asking them to justify why they charge extra for a product is like asking why some restaurants charge more for a steak than others. The answer is that if a private enterprise retailer can get a customer to pay more for a product, they will.

As for hedging against price spikes, those wholesale prices quoted by the regulator are quarterly, and therefore include all price spikes. They do vary quarter to quarter if you look deeper into the reports. However, large scale hedging would seem pointless when the wholesalers can just increase their prices in the next quarter. Why would you hedge in that case?

[rubberman]

SA doesn't need to produce any energy at all at those prices... there is margin there for an energy wholesaler to buy electricity from interstate at retail prices and sell at a profit in SA for under the current retail price.

This is the folly of the 'renewables' myth.

The wholesale price of electricity in Qld is the lowest in the country at 11c/kWH and in NSW the highest at 19c/kWH according to the regulator. So, SA is paying between 11c/kWH and 19c/kWH wholesale.


https://www.aer.gov.au/industry/wholesale/charts

If you think you can do better by buying retail in Victoria or NSW and selling in SA for cheaper, why not give it a go? The whole privatisation of the energy market ideology was to allow enterprising chaps (and chapettes) to try these ideas.

Nobody is stopping you from having a go.

Now, personally, I can't see how anyone can buy at retail prices interstate which are higher than local wholesale prices and make a profit, but by all means, prove me wrong and maybe we can clink champagne glasses on the next occasion we meet in First Class flying wherever.

I must admit that I am very sceptical that someone can buy electricity in Victoria for around 30c/kWH retail, transport it to SA (paying network charges, of course), and then undercut wholesale prices. But you can certainly try...and let us know how you go.

[abc]

watching the mental gymnastics performed by the renewable zealots trying to justify these SA prices is a sight to behold

[rubberman]

watching the mental gymnastics performed by the renewable zealots trying to justify these SA prices is a sight to behold

So, go buy cheap electricity from interstate and sell it here. Why are you wasting your time here?

By all means, make your fortune. Retire rich.

But you aren't going to do it if you just talk.

As for justifying prices? Um. You realise that if you don't like the prices of something, you should complain to the people charging those amounts. Complaining here isn't going to get you heard in the boardrooms of Alinta, AGL, Origin.

[abc]

watching the mental gymnastics performed by the renewable zealots trying to justify these SA prices is a sight to behold

So, go buy cheap electricity from interstate and sell it here. Why are you wasting your time here?

By all means, make your fortune. Retire rich.

But you aren't going to do it if you just talk.

As for justifying prices? Um. You realise that if you don't like the prices of something, you should complain to the people charging those amounts. Complaining here isn't going to get you heard in the boardrooms of Alinta, AGL, Origin.

meltdown

[rubberman]

For people seriously interested in wholesale pricing of electricity in SA compared to interstate, the Energy Regulator has provided a comprehensive report. This report is updated quarterly so we can see what's happening in the wholesale market. That is, the prices that the generators, be they fossil fueled or renewables, charge to retailers.

Here's a link to where you can download the reports if you want hard data.

https://www.aer.gov.au/documents/q3-202 ... y-report-0

If you look at figure one which gives wholesale prices since 2020, you can see that SA is in the middle of the pack price wise over almost the entire period. That is, energy retailers like AGL, Origin etc are paying prices in SA comparable with prices paid by retailers interstate.

However, the latest quarter has SA prices going up over the average for the first time in four years. The reasons being low wind, and network outages. The report doesn't state which of those was the most critical, and the regulator will publish a report in November specifically looking at this. So, it's unwise to speculate because anyone trying to guess might be a little red faced if the Regulator proves them wrong next month.

[Jaymz]

If you look at figure one which gives wholesale prices since 2020, you can see that SA is in the middle of the pack price wise over almost the entire period. That is, energy retailers like AGL, Origin etc are paying prices in SA comparable with prices paid by retailers interstate.

So if that is the case, one can only assume that S.A is being price gouged by the retailers. Although when you try to think about it, what makes us any different to any other state re the retail price? Why us?

[PeFe]

I have also heard that South Australian transmission charges (the price to move electricity from one part of the state to another) are higher than all the other states (including WA which actually has 3 separate grids).

This has been justified by SAPN because of SA's small population base and the large distances covered by the electricity network serving very small numbers of people.

What the exact dollar numbers are is difficult to find out....always protected by "business confidentiality agreements".