News & Discussion: Public Transport Contracts, Service & Policy

[Spotto]

Melbounre has plans to remove at least 110 level crossings within the Melbounre metro area in the next couple of years. So far (as of August 2024), 84 crossings have been removed and 48 train stations have been built or rebuilt as part of the project. Within the last 12 months completed projects in Glen Huntley tram / rail crossing on the line to Frankston, a new elevated station at Deer park on the line to Melton, an elevated station at Murumbeena on line line to Parkenham, Camms Rd at Cranboure and Parkenham to East Parkenham elevated secton.

At risk of going further off topic, we could’ve had the Brighton Road level crossing at Hove removed years ago with skyrail if the locals hadn’t gotten up in arms about their non-existent sea views being blocked, or the community being “divided” (by open community space below the skyrail?), or too many properties being acquired (versus a rail trench or a road overpass that would’ve required more acquisition and demolition), or road traffic being unclogged which would’ve make right turns difficult.

[baytram366]

That's because Victoria actually has a clue about public transport and its importance. We make a big song and dance about a 1km "new" line and the reopening of a station with next to no shelter. Its very clear our government is not interested at all in public transport. If they were, our rail network and tram system would look very different. Victoria is streets ahead of us and this gap will only continue to get much larger in future.

[NTRabbit]

Here's a questionnaire about future transport in SA by the DTI.

For those with an interest in transport, here's your chance.

https://engage.dit.sa.gov.au/transport-strategy-survey

Having gone through it, my feeling is that the intended goal is to push for support for bus on demand and trackless tram with an increase in trip costs to cover the "convenience" and whatever third party they're planning to contract digital ticketing out to, but that's just me.

There's a set of loaded "How important is this" questions at the bottom of the third last page really trying to steer the results.

[rubberman]

Here's a questionnaire about future transport in SA by the DTI.

For those with an interest in transport, here's your chance.

https://engage.dit.sa.gov.au/transport-strategy-survey

Having gone through it, my feeling is that the intended goal is to push for support for bus on demand and trackless tram with an increase in trip costs to cover the "convenience" and whatever third party they're planning to contract digital ticketing out to, but that's just me.

There's a set of loaded "How important is this" questions at the bottom of the third last page really trying to steer the results.

Various SA governments as far back as Dunstan in the 70s have flirted with bus on demand...unsuccessfully. I'd just get the popcorn out.

Now, longer, low floor, muliti door entry articulated buses are hardly new. They also would be a vast improvement over front only loading (or two/three door loading on the O-Bahn). That extends to battery and hybrid battery/trolleybus variants. This is pretty much established technology, and if the government were to introduce those, it would be a vast improvement in loading times. That, in turn, would reduce stop numbers in the CBD. (If you reduce times required at stops, you need fewer stops for a given number of buses).

I've travelled on these multi articulated, multi doored, low floor buses in Prague and Bratislava (in trolleybus/battery hybrid form, and they are fine. I'm sure they'd improve things in Adelaide, be they diesel, battery, trolleybus or hybrid variants. If the government introduced them as "trackless trams", they'd get a bollocking for calling buses"trams", but they'd be an improvement so apart from a snigger at the name, I'd be fine.

Here's a link to the Prague version:

https://www.dpp.cz/spolecnost/aktuality ... busem-v-cr

It has pics and a video. Plus length, weight, speed, capacity, seats, battery capacity, motor kw.

The trolleybus/battery variant shown has a 7.5 Tonne axle load. That means battery-only versions are likely to have higher axle loads due to much bigger batteries, and require a lot of money spent on pavement upgrades.

[dbl96]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

[ChillyPhilly]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

Not yet, but I'd like to. Disappointing to hear if that's the universal case.

[ml69]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

[rubberman]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

Battery buses are a lot heavier per passenger than diesel or trolley buses. Take a look at the frequency of having to redo the bus lane in Currie and Grenfell Streets. Heavier buses will require their own extra strength road base. So, while they might be somewhat cheaper than trams, they are not a fraction of the cost.

The EU did a big study not so long ago, and the outcome was that fully electric buses are ok for smaller sizes where the axle loads and numbers are lower. Plus, charging time requirements generally mean longer stays at termini. That study, over a large number of cities, concluded that hybrid trolley/battery bus technology was the best for most applications. Axle loads and numbers could be reduced compared with battery-only buses, so special track was not required. The hybrids can run off wire in CBDs, and don't require charging at termini.

The fully battery buses of the Brisbane Metro needed specially strong pavement, and it was expensive. Almost as expensive as trams would have been.

[dbl96]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

It's not like they are even commonplace in China either, from what I can see. All the press shots the media and politicians here keep getting excited about are from the same experimental line in Zhuzhou, Hunan province, which was opened in 2017. It has also since been implemented in a handful of other minor cities in China, and Mexico (and maybe Kuching in Malaysia) is building a line currently. They have been tested, but rejected in various other places including Qatar and Johor in Malaysia. That's what I got from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomou ... id_Transit .

[PeFe]

What about the new Irizar electric buses in London?

Fast charging stations at each end of the route....therefore you can use smaller batteries....not as much wear and tear on the roads as other electric buses.

The London 358 route is 25 kms long.

From Sustainable Bus

London, Go Ahead starts deploying the first Irizar e-buses in UK

Starting November 20th, the first Irizar ie trams started being put into service on one of the longest bus lines in London between Crystal Palace and Orpington. With this project, Irizar e-mobility will electrify the first bus line with ultra-fast opportunity charging in London, following a contract signed in late 2022. Irizar zero emission buses […]



Starting November 20th, the first Irizar ie trams started being put into service on one of the longest bus lines in London between Crystal Palace and Orpington. With this project, Irizar e-mobility will electrify the first bus line with ultra-fast opportunity charging in London, following a contract signed in late 2022.

Irizar zero emission buses in UK
The twenty 100% electric 12 metre long buses acquired by Go Ahead are the first ones made with right-hand drive and the first ones used in the UK.

Irizar e-mobility has also provided chargers from Jema Energy (an Irizar Group member company), two ultra-fast 450 kW chargers for the line ends and 100 kW chargers for the depot, which can charge two buses simultaneously at 50 kW.



Full article : https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electri ... -go-ahead/

Here are a few reviews from London transport vloggers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk49uAp0l10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIQYsvUgSIM

[abc]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

They have one running a route in Perth. I think the locals joke about it.

Trackless trams though, just seem like a typical Adelaide solution.

we call our bus network a metro, we call a pedestrian underpass a subway, we call a basketball shed a Dome, we call 425mls a pint, we call a creek a river, we call a hill a mountain, it stands to reason we'd call an electric bus a tram

[rubberman]

What about the new Irizar electric buses in London?

Fast charging stations at each end of the route....therefore you can use smaller batteries....not as much wear and tear on the roads as other electric buses.

The London 358 route is 25 kms long.

From Sustainable Bus

London, Go Ahead starts deploying the first Irizar e-buses in UK

Starting November 20th, the first Irizar ie trams started being put into service on one of the longest bus lines in London between Crystal Palace and Orpington. With this project, Irizar e-mobility will electrify the first bus line with ultra-fast opportunity charging in London, following a contract signed in late 2022. Irizar zero emission buses […]



Starting November 20th, the first Irizar ie trams started being put into service on one of the longest bus lines in London between Crystal Palace and Orpington. With this project, Irizar e-mobility will electrify the first bus line with ultra-fast opportunity charging in London, following a contract signed in late 2022.

Irizar zero emission buses in UK
The twenty 100% electric 12 metre long buses acquired by Go Ahead are the first ones made with right-hand drive and the first ones used in the UK.

Irizar e-mobility has also provided chargers from Jema Energy (an Irizar Group member company), two ultra-fast 450 kW chargers for the line ends and 100 kW chargers for the depot, which can charge two buses simultaneously at 50 kW.



Full article : https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electri ... -go-ahead/

Here are a few reviews from London transport vloggers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk49uAp0l10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIQYsvUgSIM

Yup. Those are the generic 12m buses that resulted from the EU study. The UK, at the time most of the study was done was an EU member, and would have jointly funded the study.

Another example is the Solaris Urbino 12. Same same.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris ... 2_electric

There's still the question of axle weight and terminus charging time. Again, if those are critical, the solution is a smaller/lighter battery and overhead wiring. That maintains the range, while providing lower axle loads and faster turnaround at termini.

The choice depends on the strength of the existing pavements, times at termini to maintain schedules, whether the routes are hilly or not etc. Trolleybuses with batteries are generally the more flexible option. However, that's where each individual city needs to correctly understand what is required. A blind hope that a bus with an extra 3 tonnes of batteries won't cause a pavement to fail is just likely to discredit battery buses in general if it does fail.

For longer buses, iirc, overhead wires and smaller batteries were the best solution in most cases, and when they got to the three section articulated bus that some call a trackless tram if you want a 100% battery bus, then you need a 'track' that's suitable (and what the Brisbane Metro busway design incorporated). Of course, that bumps the cost up near that of trams.

https://www.uitp.org/projects/zeeus/

[ml69]

Has anyone been to these interactive sessions they have been holding in various places about the transport plan? Some kind of VR thing where you can look at the ‘Adelaide of the Future’ or something like that.

The pictures on DIT’s website, which I can only assume come from the VR ‘experience’ show a future Adelaide which looks a lot like Singapore except full of ‘trackless trams’ and Keolis Downer uber busses.

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

Battery buses are a lot heavier per passenger than diesel or trolley buses. Take a look at the frequency of having to redo the bus lane in Currie and Grenfell Streets. Heavier buses will require their own extra strength road base. So, while they might be somewhat cheaper than trams, they are not a fraction of the cost.

The EU did a big study not so long ago, and the outcome was that fully electric buses are ok for smaller sizes where the axle loads and numbers are lower. Plus, charging time requirements generally mean longer stays at termini. That study, over a large number of cities, concluded that hybrid trolley/battery bus technology was the best for most applications. Axle loads and numbers could be reduced compared with battery-only buses, so special track was not required. The hybrids can run off wire in CBDs, and don't require charging at termini.

The fully battery buses of the Brisbane Metro needed specially strong pavement, and it was expensive. Almost as expensive as trams would have been.

I hear what you’re saying about the weight of battery electric buses, but are they any heavier or worse than B-double semi-trailers carrying a full load? Bitumen just needs to be built to the standard of main roads carrying these trucks.

Btw those Irizar ie trams would also be a great option for Adelaide if they prove to be operationally reliable.

[rubberman]

I’m quite skeptical of trackless trams. Never been implemented outside of China, unproven at this stage and you are locked into the manufacturers proprietary technology (reminds me of the SAHMRI fiasco with the proton therapy machine). It’s too risky.
Better to go with proven battery electric buses which are 80% as good as trams but a small fraction of the cost of tram line construction. It will be interesting to watch the performance of the Hess Lightrams used in the recently open Brisbane Metro. If successful, it could be a model for Adelaide to follow on key public transport corridors such as Henley Beach Rd > City > Norwood Parade.
I’ve even got a name for the vehicle/service - CityGlider.
This doesn’t mention whether it’s a bus or a tram, the name emphasizes the positive characteristics of the vehicle.

Battery buses are a lot heavier per passenger than diesel or trolley buses. Take a look at the frequency of having to redo the bus lane in Currie and Grenfell Streets. Heavier buses will require their own extra strength road base. So, while they might be somewhat cheaper than trams, they are not a fraction of the cost.

The EU did a big study not so long ago, and the outcome was that fully electric buses are ok for smaller sizes where the axle loads and numbers are lower. Plus, charging time requirements generally mean longer stays at termini. That study, over a large number of cities, concluded that hybrid trolley/battery bus technology was the best for most applications. Axle loads and numbers could be reduced compared with battery-only buses, so special track was not required. The hybrids can run off wire in CBDs, and don't require charging at termini.

The fully battery buses of the Brisbane Metro needed specially strong pavement, and it was expensive. Almost as expensive as trams would have been.

I hear what you’re saying about the weight of battery electric buses, but are they any heavier or worse than B-double semi-trailers carrying a full load? Bitumen just needs to be built to the standard of main roads carrying these trucks.

Btw those Irizar ie trams would also be a great option for Adelaide if they prove to be operationally reliable.

Yep. You are right that the roads would need to be constructed to B double standard. That's the point though. Road pavement design takes into account the weight of axles and numbers of those axles passing over a highway. So, for example, if Grenfell Street was designed for buses with a certain axle load averaged over three lanes, and then it was changed to a higher axle load on mostly one lane, then it would need to be reconstructed to account for that. The problem is that often people promoting their big buses actively suggest that no such upgrades are required, often over the protests of the road engineers in charge of maintenance.

Edit. The result of those EU investigations was to have a number of bus manufacturers in Europe building buses like the Irizar. Some have been in operation for a few years. The ordering of electric buses, be they fully battery, fully trolleybus or trolleybus/battery hybrid in Europe is pretty much like ordering a public transport diesel bus. Put out a tender for what you want, get at least three tenders, evaluate, buy.

If the Scania/Irizar conforms with the EU standard, then sure, let's consider it along with others like Solaris, Škoda, Mecedes and Volvo. Of course, there are also a lot of smaller manufacturers like Irizar too which ally with bigger brands. That's also ignoring China, which is rapidly increasing quality and quantity at great prices. If SA were to put in orders for a decent number of electric buses there'd be a flood of capable tenderers. The real question is the extra cost of pavement reconstruction and maintenance to determine the mix of battery only vs hybrid vs trolleybus...or possibly tram that's required. At the moment, without the hard figures, we must resist the impulse to choose between any of these.

Solaris has 250 of these for Milan. A substantial order. 12x the London number.

https://youtu.be/bgHlh9UTszk?feature=shared

[EBG]

Here is another report of the new london electric bus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk49uAp ... ffMarshall.