[SWP] Lot 14 (Old RAH Site)

[Nathan]

You can't compare botanic garden to parkland funding.

Parklands are mostly an Adelaide City council thing. The users are local residents and local businesses.
Playing sport, walking, riding, school use etc.
The parks in suburbs are mostly paid for by local councils also.
The state government already puts more money towards Adelaide council parks than parks in suburbs.

Botanic garden is a state government thing.
The users are from all over.
Its peers are things like the sa museum, the sa library, the sa art gallery, and all the other significant things in the city etc which are funded by the state not the Adelaide City council.

Point being, whether the land is assigned to the botanic garden or to parklands, it needs to come with increased ongoing funding for the either the garden or council to maintain it to an A+ standard.

[Prodical]

Yes - no one is suggesting that the Botanic Gardens should establish and maintain an additional garden area probably 25% larger than existing.

Returning this vacant land to public use would counterbalance the parklands and heritage area lost for the new Children's hospital, showing the Government is serious about public access and maintaining Adelaide as a unique city for its amenity and open areas. And saving around $500m at the same time. The proposed allocation is not from the budget income - it is borrowed, with SA increasingly sliding into debt, increasing enormously over the next few years.

Scrap this and the hydrogen project ($.75b which would be private sector funded if viable), so reducing State debt that passes the problem to the next generation to pay back.

[abc]

cover it in lawn and let the school use it and look after it

[Will]

Returning this to parklands would be a short sighted decision. This bit of land has not been parklands since the 1840s. It is the last available section of land in our cultural boulevard to do something spectacular. To do something that will get people to visit us from around the world. Turning this to lawn is such a backwater idea.

[ynotsfables]

Returning this to parklands would be a short sighted decision. This bit of land has not been parklands since the 1840s. It is the last available section of land in our cultural boulevard to do something spectacular. To do something that will get people to visit us from around the world. Turning this to lawn is such a backwater idea.

I agree if we give it back to the park lands we will never get it back. It's a prime location.

[Llessur2002]

Botanic Garden doesn't equal parklands. It is perfectly suited to the cultural boulevard and an extension could be every bit an asset that a new gallery could.

What building of note could be constructed here for less than the $600M the aboriginal gallery is slated to cost? To be honest I'm not 100% sure why a low-rise museum containing artefacts already owned should cost 50% more than the entire Central Markets development but the prices paid by all levels of government for pretty much any civil project never cease to amaze me.

If you want a 'spectacular' building here then given the current climate the reality is that the site is probably going to sit vacant for 10+ years. Is it worth fencing the land off for that long to build an unspecified gallery or museum on it?

[Spotto]

If you want a 'spectacular' building here then given the current climate the reality is that the site is probably going to sit vacant for 10+ years. Is it worth fencing the land off for that long to build an unspecified gallery or museum on it?

Worst case they could always just grass it over and leave it as open space until they figure out what to do with it? The old LeCornu site on O’Connell Street was really nice after ACC bought and opened the land while the current development plans were set in motion.

[SRW]

They can't really just grass it over. It's been piled and excavated. They'd need bring in fill, so it's a pretty big decision to make.

My two cents is that for all the focus on Tarrkarri, the proposed EIC has received comparatively little scrutiny.

[Patrick_27]

They can't really just grass it over. It's been piled and excavated. They'd need bring in fill, so it's a pretty big decision to make.

My two cents is that for all the focus on Tarrkarri, the proposed EIC has received comparatively little scrutiny.

Less scrutiny and it basically goes against the initial philosophy for this entire precinct: innovation and entrepreneurship. How does handing over a parcel of land to BAE benefit this precinct at all? BAE already exist in Adelaide, BAE could set-up anywhere in the CBD, Port Adelaide or Edinburgh at minimal cost/effort, this is basically a government handout for the sake of a government handout sold to the public as job creation... The jobs were already coming here with or without this building!

[Llessur2002]

Has there been any insight into why the indigenous gallery is apparently going to cost $600M? Yes it's pretty from the outside but most galleries are essentially just glorified warehouses with some special lighting and AV thrown into the mix.

How can the Central Markets development and the proposed new tallest Freemasons building be built for $400M a piece? Countless bathrooms, complex plumbing, multiple elevators stretching over 40 floors and hundreds of residential and hotel fitouts vs a series of larger open spaces spread over one or two levels with a handful of bathrooms etc.

Is it in the elaborate cladding? Do they need to purchase more pieces to exhibit (I didn't think that was the case)? Are there complex and expensive requirements over climate control and storage facilities?

Are there significant 'consultancy' fees involved? Does the $600M include staffing over X years? If so, how many people are actually involved in running a gallery and what is a typical salary?

There's not even any demolition or remediation costs in this $600M figure either - that was all completed under the original Lot 14 clearance.

It just seems a huge amount of money for something that at first glance appears less complex than a lot of recent Adelaide developments.

If it's the cladding and external design treatment then why not dumb it down to an acceptable price? Everything else ends up simplified so most people would forget about it pretty quickly.

Something smells a bit fishy to me - I bet it would cost half as much for exactly the same outcome if this were a private project.

[rev]

How about if they extend the Botanic Gardens onto this site, they use this site for a native plants setup with an indigenous element? Perhaps showcasing how our indigenous managed their lands before colonisation?
Kind of best of both worlds then right? Those who want more parklands/green space get it and those who want some indigenous type monument setup get that too.
Would be pretty unique no? Does any other botanic garden in Australia have something like that?

[Nathan]

How about if they extend the Botanic Gardens onto this site, they use this site for a native plants setup with an indigenous element? Perhaps showcasing how our indigenous managed their lands before colonisation?
Kind of best of both worlds then right? Those who want more parklands/green space get it and those who want some indigenous type monument setup get that too.
Would be pretty unique no? Does any other botanic garden in Australia have something like that?

The Adelaide Botanic Garden already has an Australian Native Garden, and the Australian National Botanic Garden in Canberra has multiple native gardens representing different areas of Australia.

[ml69]

Has there been any insight into why the indigenous gallery is apparently going to cost $600M? Yes it's pretty from the outside but most galleries are essentially just glorified warehouses with some special lighting and AV thrown into the mix.

How can the Central Markets development and the proposed new tallest Freemasons building be built for $400M a piece? Countless bathrooms, complex plumbing, multiple elevators stretching over 40 floors and hundreds of residential and hotel fitouts vs a series of larger open spaces spread over one or two levels with a handful of bathrooms etc.

Is it in the elaborate cladding? Do they need to purchase more pieces to exhibit (I didn't think that was the case)? Are there complex and expensive requirements over climate control and storage facilities?

Are there significant 'consultancy' fees involved? Does the $600M include staffing over X years? If so, how many people are actually involved in running a gallery and what is a typical salary?

There's not even any demolition or remediation costs in this $600M figure either - that was all completed under the original Lot 14 clearance.

It just seems a huge amount of money for something that at first glance appears less complex than a lot of recent Adelaide developments.

If it's the cladding and external design treatment then why not dumb it down to an acceptable price? Everything else ends up simplified so most people would forget about it pretty quickly.

Something smells a bit fishy to me - I bet it would cost half as much for exactly the same outcome if this were a private project.

I don’t know why, but these galleries/museums are just expensive. For example, the WA Museum redevelopment was finished in 2020 and cost $400M. Google it … it doesn’t look particularly special. In today’s prices, that’s likely over $500M. Admittedly, it was a very extensive redevelopment which also meant building over the top of existing heritage buildings, which you’d think would be expensive to do.

Interestingly, the WA Museum provides a useful template and potential solution for SA. WA initially planned to build a brand new $500M museum in the old East Perth Power Station - this plan was scuttled when a new state government was elected (sound familiar?). Eventually they decided to redevelop the existing WA Museum site, incorporating existing heritage buildings - and saved money by doing it.

So why couldn’t we incorporate a smaller version of Tarrkarri incorporated within the existing SA Museum, by filling in the grass lawn fronting North Tce? There is a 60m frontage to North Tce and I’m pretty sure you could build a spectacular new front building in that space. Cost - could you do it for $300M in today’s dollars? Cost saving comes from having only one building face look amazing (North Tce) as opposed to all 4 faces in a new build. There also wouldn’t be the construction complexities like the WA Museum.

This new front building could incorporate the Tarrkarri exhibition galleries, new reception/entrance facilities, a special exhibitions space on the ground floor, theatrerette, additional storage etc, and also provide improved circulation to the existing exhibition spaces.

This then leaves the current site earmarked for Tarrkarri as space for a Botanic Gardens expansion. Everyone wins - Tarrkarri is smaller but gets built, government saves money and the public get a bigger Botanic Gardens. Good, no?

[abc]

Has there been any insight into why the indigenous gallery is apparently going to cost $600M? Yes it's pretty from the outside but most galleries are essentially just glorified warehouses with some special lighting and AV thrown into the mix.

How can the Central Markets development and the proposed new tallest Freemasons building be built for $400M a piece? Countless bathrooms, complex plumbing, multiple elevators stretching over 40 floors and hundreds of residential and hotel fitouts vs a series of larger open spaces spread over one or two levels with a handful of bathrooms etc.

Is it in the elaborate cladding? Do they need to purchase more pieces to exhibit (I didn't think that was the case)? Are there complex and expensive requirements over climate control and storage facilities?

Are there significant 'consultancy' fees involved? Does the $600M include staffing over X years? If so, how many people are actually involved in running a gallery and what is a typical salary?

There's not even any demolition or remediation costs in this $600M figure either - that was all completed under the original Lot 14 clearance.

It just seems a huge amount of money for something that at first glance appears less complex than a lot of recent Adelaide developments.

If it's the cladding and external design treatment then why not dumb it down to an acceptable price? Everything else ends up simplified so most people would forget about it pretty quickly.

Something smells a bit fishy to me - I bet it would cost half as much for exactly the same outcome if this were a private project.

I don’t know why, but these galleries/museums are just expensive. For example, the WA Museum redevelopment was finished in 2020 and cost $400M. Google it … it doesn’t look particularly special. In today’s prices, that’s likely over $500M. Admittedly, it was a very extensive redevelopment which also meant building over the top of existing heritage buildings, which you’d think would be expensive to do.

Interestingly, the WA Museum provides a useful template and potential solution for SA. WA initially planned to build a brand new $500M museum in the old East Perth Power Station - this plan was scuttled when a new state government was elected (sound familiar?). Eventually they decided to redevelop the existing WA Museum site, incorporating existing heritage buildings - and saved money by doing it.

So why couldn’t we incorporate a smaller version of Tarrkarri incorporated within the existing SA Museum, by filling in the grass lawn fronting North Tce? There is a 60m frontage to North Tce and I’m pretty sure you could build a spectacular new front building in that space. Cost - could you do it for $300M in today’s dollars? Cost saving comes from having only one building face look amazing (North Tce) as opposed to all 4 faces in a new build. There also wouldn’t be the construction complexities like the WA Museum.

This new front building could incorporate the Tarrkarri exhibition galleries, new reception/entrance facilities, a special exhibitions space on the ground floor, theatrerette, additional storage etc, and also provide improved circulation to the existing exhibition spaces.

This then leaves the current site earmarked for Tarrkarri as space for a Botanic Gardens expansion. Everyone wins - Tarrkarri is smaller but gets built, government saves money and the public get a bigger Botanic Gardens. Good, no?

just no... 1000 times no

[Spotto]

I don’t know why, but these galleries/museums are just expensive. For example, the WA Museum redevelopment was finished in 2020 and cost $400M. Google it … it doesn’t look particularly special. In today’s prices, that’s likely over $500M. Admittedly, it was a very extensive redevelopment which also meant building over the top of existing heritage buildings, which you’d think would be expensive to do.

Interestingly, the WA Museum provides a useful template and potential solution for SA. WA initially planned to build a brand new $500M museum in the old East Perth Power Station - this plan was scuttled when a new state government was elected (sound familiar?). Eventually they decided to redevelop the existing WA Museum site, incorporating existing heritage buildings - and saved money by doing it.

So why couldn’t we incorporate a smaller version of Tarrkarri incorporated within the existing SA Museum, by filling in the grass lawn fronting North Tce? There is a 60m frontage to North Tce and I’m pretty sure you could build a spectacular new front building in that space. Cost - could you do it for $300M in today’s dollars? Cost saving comes from having only one building face look amazing (North Tce) as opposed to all 4 faces in a new build. There also wouldn’t be the construction complexities like the WA Museum.

This new front building could incorporate the Tarrkarri exhibition galleries, new reception/entrance facilities, a special exhibitions space on the ground floor, theatrerette, additional storage etc, and also provide improved circulation to the existing exhibition spaces.

This then leaves the current site earmarked for Tarrkarri as space for a Botanic Gardens expansion. Everyone wins - Tarrkarri is smaller but gets built, government saves money and the public get a bigger Botanic Gardens. Good, no?

just no... 1000 times no

Any actual reason beyond “just no”?