News & Discussion: Roads & Traffic

[Wayno]

<snip>
Energy: Since 2001, the international oil price has gone up by USD 10/barrel each year. This translates into an extra 10c/L for the Australian petrol or diesel price. The era of cheap mobility is coming to an end. Is this taken into account when planning in SA ? It certainly is in WA.
<snip>

I have confidence that other cost-effective fuel systems will ramp up to take the place of petrol (fuel cells, electricity, maybe even nuclear way down the track - yikes!). Not to take anything away from WA and their forward planning - we certainly do need to entice (gently force?) people to use public transport for the purpose of commuting...

[The_Q915]

I agree with what has been said about making the rail system run more efficiently. It does make sense to make better use of out existing rail system for public transport from the outer areas to the city centre. It needs to be fast, stop less often and have feeder bus services.

Idea for Outer Harbour Line
Permanent Express services to Woodville Railway Station, and the closure of stations between Woodville and Adelaide. This would significantly speed up services. From memory an express service takes about 6 minutes to reach the city while non express takes about 15 minutes. Trains should come every 5 minutes in peak and 15 minutes off peak. The bus Interchange for the area should be relocated from Andale to Woodville Station. Then you have the feeder bus services connecting to with a station with fast access to the city.


I do not believe public transport will make a significant difference to congestion. I get my figures of the Perth northern line from VCEC
http://www.vcec.vic.gov.au/CA256EAF001C ... enDocument
Perth’s Northern Rail line does not carry 7 lanes of traffic. That would be over 14,000 people an hour wile the line’s total patronage for a day is around 32,000. Perhaps you herd it carry’s 7 lanes of traffic from here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCKDBHT3i74


Costs of Public Transport Modes from Draft Transport Plan 2003
Cents a Kilometre Average Trip Length km

O Bahn Bus 35 12
Regular Bus 25 – 60 7
generally 40
Gawler Train 41 23
Noarlunga Train 45 18
Outer Harbour Train 85 12
Belair Train 70 16
Glenelg Tram 2003(before upgrade) 55 7

[monotonehell]

...I do not believe public transport will make a significant difference to congestion. I get my figures of the Perth northern line from VCEC
http://www.vcec.vic.gov.au/CA256EAF001C ... enDocument
Perth’s Northern Rail line does not carry 7 lanes of traffic. That would be over 14,000 people an hour wile the line’s total patronage for a day is around 32,000. Perhaps you herd it carry’s 7 lanes of traffic from here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCKDBHT3i74

A lot of talk regarding capacity of PT is irrelevant, sure they have a theoretical maximum capacity of X Y or Z, but compared to the reality of how many people actually end up catching it, the point is moot. Trains can theoretically carry more people from A to B that buses, but how many people want to get from A to B? Only a proportion. Most people want to get to A and B from C D E F G H I J... and so on. Trains are good for shuttling a lot of people from one place to another express. We should recognise this and close most of the minor stations, provide feeder services and loops via buses, and think about busways instead.

Costs of Public Transport Modes from Draft Transport Plan 2003
Cents a Kilometre Average Trip Length km

O Bahn Bus 35 12
Regular Bus 25 – 60 7
generally 40
Gawler Train 41 23
Noarlunga Train 45 18
Outer Harbour Train 85 12
Belair Train 70 16
Glenelg Tram 2003(before upgrade) 55 7

Those are some very interesting and compelling figures there.

[ozisnowman]

The subject should read the Adelaide Public Transport Woes because that is what it
will become... Forget about Toll Ways and Freeways, these dam politicians and business
people are making knee jerk reactions to current problems rather than thinking ahead.

Oil production is expected to peek about 2012 after that demand will far exceed supply
and with reduction in oil stock the prices will skyrocket... We will be faced with a
major problem, all these people living in out suburbs will not be able to get to work...

If you live within 10km of the city you will at least have the option to ride your
PUSH BIKE

[monotonehell]

The subject should read the Adelaide Public Transport Woes because that is what it
will become... Forget about Toll Ways and Freeways, these dam politicians and business
people are making knee jerk reactions to current problems rather than thinking ahead.

Oil production is expected to peek about 2012 after that demand will far exceed supply
and with reduction in oil stock the prices will skyrocket... We will be faced with a
major problem, all these people living in out suburbs will not be able to get to work...

If you live within 10km of the city you will at least have the option to ride your
PUSH BIKE

Yes. We need to make a LOT of changes to how we do so many things. Most of our infrastructure is keyed into oil, and our way of life is incredibly wasteful. We need to pursue different energy sources for PT and a different way of providing PT that is compellingly more convenient, not just cheaper than cars.

And not just point A to point B thinking. We need to think about all the other points that people want to come from and go to. Not everybody works in the CBD or other centres.

[Cruise]

The subject should read the Adelaide Public Transport Woes because that is what it
will become... Forget about Toll Ways and Freeways, these dam politicians and business
people are making knee jerk reactions to current problems rather than thinking ahead.

Oil production is expected to peek about 2012 after that demand will far exceed supply
and with reduction in oil stock the prices will skyrocket... We will be faced with a
major problem, all these people living in out suburbs will not be able to get to work...

If you live within 10km of the city you will at least have the option to ride your
PUSH BIKE

I dont work in the city

[Wayno]

i saw an article in the Australian yesterday about air-powered cars. In summary you have a high-pressure gas bottle that gets charged for $2 and lasts 200-300km. The air-power is supplemented by a small conventional engine. They are being made for the India market. Sounds very interesting. Anyone seen more detail on this one?

[Edgar]

Hi Wayne,

I have not know any details about that, but physically speaking, it basically pushes the car via a tank of compressed air. There is no internal combustion happening in the engine, purely air-forced.

But the problem is, say a full tank can hold up to 40-50 litres of air volume, the compression gets lower as air is being let out of the tank, meaning, the more you use, the lesser the air remains in the tank, the lesser the air, the lower the compression.

If it is 'that' straight forward (I hope it is not though), it will mean that the further you travel in a tank, the slower your car will go. So hmm, I don't think it would work, though I need more details to put things together because if it is that simple, it would have caught up decades ago.

[Wayno]

Hi Wayne,

I have not know any details about that, but physically speaking, it basically pushes the car via a tank of compressed air. There is no internal combustion happening in the engine, purely air-forced.

But the problem is, say a full tank can hold up to 40-50 litres of air volume, the compression gets lower as air is being let out of the tank, meaning, the more you use, the lesser the air remains in the tank, the lesser the air, the lower the compression.

If it is 'that' straight forward (I hope it is not though), it will mean that the further you travel in a tank, the slower your car will go. So hmm, I don't think it would work, though I need more details to put things together because if it is that simple, it would have caught up decades ago.

yeah, i'm not sure of the physics involved, it was just an interesting article especially since more and more people are talking about peak oil production in 2012 (yikes!)

[Wayno]

Hi Wayne,

I have not know any details about that, but physically speaking, it basically pushes the car via a tank of compressed air. There is no internal combustion happening in the engine, purely air-forced.

But the problem is, say a full tank can hold up to 40-50 litres of air volume, the compression gets lower as air is being let out of the tank, meaning, the more you use, the lesser the air remains in the tank, the lesser the air, the lower the compression.

If it is 'that' straight forward (I hope it is not though), it will mean that the further you travel in a tank, the slower your car will go. So hmm, I don't think it would work, though I need more details to put things together because if it is that simple, it would have caught up decades ago.

i googled and found a couple of reasonably reliable references to the Air Car, but could still be "a lot of hot air"
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_car
* http://www.businessweek.com/autos/conte ... 949435.htm

[AtD]

yeah, i'm not sure of the physics involved, it was just an interesting article especially since more and more people are talking about peak oil production in 2012 (yikes!)

Compressed Air used in environments where you can't have sources of sparks or exhaust. It's not an 'alternative energy' because you still need to compress the air, which requires a compressor, which requires a motor.

For the oil alternative argument, think of it like potential energy in physics. A ball at the top of a hill has a lot of potential energy, which becomes kinetic energy when it rolls down the hill until. Once at the bottom of the hill, you need to carry it back up to the top for it to have any potential energy, but carrying it up uses more kinetic energy than generated by rolling it down.

What we need to find, as an energy source, is a ball at the top of a hill. Oil is like a ball at the top of the hill, we can just push it down the hill and get energy. Compressed air is a ball at the bottom of the hill, we have to carry it up the top before we can roll it down. Air is not compressed naturally, so we need to compress it ourselves.

[monotonehell]

Hi Wayne,

I have not know any details about that, but physically speaking, it basically pushes the car via a tank of compressed air. There is no internal combustion happening in the engine, purely air-forced.

But the problem is, say a full tank can hold up to 40-50 litres of air volume, the compression gets lower as air is being let out of the tank, meaning, the more you use, the lesser the air remains in the tank, the lesser the air, the lower the compression.

If it is 'that' straight forward (I hope it is not though), it will mean that the further you travel in a tank, the slower your car will go. So hmm, I don't think it would work, though I need more details to put things together because if it is that simple, it would have caught up decades ago.

yeah, i'm not sure of the physics involved, it was just an interesting article especially since more and more people are talking about peak oil production in 2012 (yikes!)

I've been following these stories for a couple of years now. It's not really a new idea having been around for over 100 years, fork lifts that work in enclosed areas have been running this way for a while and several people have been working on trying to get the concept to work in road vehicles. But the problem of range hasn't been solved as far as I know.

Things started to get interesting when people started thinking hybrid. Compressed Air + Electric + Regenerative Braking. The thing is that there's a lot of controversy over whether the range of these cars can be true or if the claims break the laws of physics.

So we have to wait and see...

[adam73837]

For those of you who either went to the Clipsal 500 or walked around Hutt Street, etc this weekend will know that there were thousands of people packing into the eastern parklands. If you were in Rose Park, Greenhill Road, Hutt Street, etc you would have also noticed that they were packed with cars parked all around the side streets. I have previously suggested in this forum for a train subway to be built underneath the parklands and up to Mt Barker. Of course this won't happen due to the Adelaide City Council, National Trust SA, the Parklands Preservation Comittee, the powerful conservative minorities, etc However we must realise how much we will benefit from a subway like this. It won't only relieve congestion from the Clipsal 500, but will also relieve traffic congestion all year round in the south eastern part of the CBD and the south eastern suburbs (as I have also stated in this forum). Perth has just started building an underground railway system and we have an upcoming mining boom and are expected to be the next 'boom city'. Well let me tell you something, with the attitude of our current government and city council, we won't be progressing very far (with the exception of the tram network extension which is one of the few marks that the current state government will leave behind after they get kicked out of office ).

[Cruise]

I have previously suggested in this forum for a train subway to be built underneath the parklands and up to Mt Barker. Of course this won't happen due to the Adelaide City Council, National Trust SA, the Parklands Preservation Comittee, the powerful conservative minorities, etc

It also wont happen due to the state budget

[adam73837]

I have previously suggested in this forum for a train subway to be built underneath the parklands and up to Mt Barker. Of course this won't happen due to the Adelaide City Council, National Trust SA, the Parklands Preservation Comittee, the powerful conservative minorities, etc

It also wont happen due to the state budget

I'm not suggesting for it to happen immediately, but with the upcoming mining boom and the troops coming to Adelaide money will get pumped into the economy and soon we'll have collected quite a 'nest egg' (providing we don't blow it on pointless things like we always do )