#U/C: $43billion FTTH NBN

[Hoops]

I don't have a great understand of this kinda thing so you guys may be able to answer.


I read a while ago that copper was being stolen as it could be sold for lots of $$$$

Would it be worthwhile ripping up the existing copper and selling it to help pay for the NBN?

or is the cost of the NBN MUCH more then copper?

[Howie]

Answer would be much more.

Additionally, the Government no longer owns the copper, Telstra does. Telstra will probably run the copper network in parallel with the NBN for a long time to come, as not everyone will want to do the switch to the NBN straight away.

[monotonehell]

Answer would be much more.

Additionally, the Government no longer owns the copper, Telstra does. Telstra will probably run the copper network in parallel with the NBN for a long time to come, as not everyone will want to do the switch to the NBN straight away.

Part of the NBN will be copper. IIRC, Rudd's statement said where there is already adequate high speed copper provisioned service, the FTTH will not be rolled out.

[Howie]

I can't remember seeing that, from my understanding, it'd have to be a brand new network which would operate in parallel with the existing copper network (to ensure isps who've made significant investments in their own adsl technologies can recover their money). Part of the reason why it'd be a completely fibre network is so that they don't have to use copper at all, and risk being stuck in litigation by telstra for years on end.

[monotonehell]

I can't remember seeing that, from my understanding, it'd have to be a brand new network which would operate in parallel with the existing copper network (to ensure isps who've made significant investments in their own adsl technologies can recover their money). Part of the reason why it'd be a completely fibre network is so that they don't have to use copper at all, and risk being stuck in litigation by telstra for years on end.

Yeah buggered if I can find the article now. But as I was telling Stumpjumper earlier, copper's no slouch and we already have a large majority of premises wired up. I doubt those who own the copper networks will just pull up all the wires when there's still life in electrons.

Pesky photons coming over here and stealing our jobs!!! Ther' too' ur jobbbbs!

For Your Interest: http://www.telappliant.com/voip-news/19 ... broadband/

[Howie]

Dey turk our jeerrbs!! LOL

Followed that link above, the problem with VDSL is that it's range is even more limited by ADSL and ADSL2+. Even after 500m the drop off sync speeds are very steep. I've no doubt we can squeeze more life out of copper but i'm afraid we're flogging a dead horse here. Whereas FTTH starts at 100mb today, where it ends up in the future is anyone's guess. My workplace is connected via a 1.5terabit fibre connection to the internet, even the hotel I stayed in HK had a 1gigabit connection. Essentially the conduit is all the same, only the connecting hardware at either end changes. By the end of the 8 year rollout, we may already be able to purchase 1gigabit fibre residential routers cheaply, and the fibre cards at the distribution point may already be 1gigabit capable.

But back to the point, no one's going to be ripping up the copper network anytime in the near future. There's still a load of money to be made there for Telstra, and all their resellers... which is a good thing in my opinion, because it'll keep the FTTH network competitive... if people are paying $50 for an ADSL connection now, and are happy with it, why would they want to jump to FTTH if it costs three times as much. In essence, the copper infrastructure already in place will 'keep the fibre network honest'.

This is possibly the best model in every scenario. For those of you who are interested in the benefits of such a model, have a listen to this presentation from Internode MD Simon Hackett from last year. http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/videos/atnac08/ He was spot on back then, and now the government has vindicated what he's been saying all along.

[Aidan]

I read a while ago that copper was being stolen as it could be sold for lots of $$$$

Some copper pipes and a few cables were stolen. Then newspapers and current affairs shows got wind of it and reported it inaccurately - the first one claimed the quoted price was dollars per kilogram, when it was really cents per kilogram.
IIRC the rest of them plagiarised that claim! Subsequently a lot more copper was stolen, and scrap merchants were besieged by angry clients (most of them legit) who wrongly believed they were getting ripped off.

Since then the copper price has crashed, though China has started stockpiling it which has pushed the price back up a bit.

[SRW]

Helpful article from ABC Science:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/ ... 551066.htm

[Norman]

From AdelaideNow

SA town gets Rudd broadband first

MEREDITH BOOTH

July 01, 2009 01:05pm

A SOUTH Australian town known for low-speed living will be the first in this state to get the Federal Government's new high-speed broadband.

Victor Harbor residents will be the first South Australians to receive the Federal Government's high-speed broadband network.

A $250 million priority rollout of the National Broadband Network is to start in September.

The town, known for its retirement vilages and beach lifestyle, is one of six "priority regional locations" around Australia to result in "new high-speed backbone links to stimulate competition and better broadband services in regional Australia," broadband minister Senator Stephen Conroy said today.

"This is just the beginning and the National Broadband Network will ensure high-speed broadband is also expanded to all homes, schoools and workplaces across Australia," Senator Conroy said in a statement.

The Government today called for tenders to construct, operate and maintain the backbone links required to connect Victor Harbor with Adelaide, potentially giving towns between the two destinations competitive access to 100 mega bit per second broadband speeds.

"Access to competitive backbone infrastructure on an open access, equivalent basis, will allow retail broadband providers to expand further into regional areas," Senator Conroy said.

Victor Harbor economic development officer Roy Ramage said the news was the result of at least five years of lobbying and submissions by the council and Fleurieu Regional Development to improve broadband access for Victor Harbor's 15,300 residents.

Currently Telstra "has it locked up" owning all the infrastructure which broadband providers use to supply product, he said.

"This is wonderful news ... it puts us on a level playing field with city dwellers. We're no longer the second cousins," Mr Ramage said.

He expected improved broadband to increase the city's appeal to businesses and residents for relocation.

The city is currently one of the fastest growing populations in the state.

"Some of the fastest growing areas is home business ... painters, architects, software developers; broadband is an absolute necessity for modern living," he said.

Other regions announced in the NBN priority list are Emerald and Longreach in Queensland, Geraldton in Western Australia, Darwin, Northern Territory, Broken Hill, New South Wales and South West Gippsland, Victoria.

[Howie]

Yep.. it's happening, tenders being called for the backbone links.. it's becoming closer to reality for us suburbanites. Can't wait to give telstra the flick.

[Edgar]

Don't know much about how the internet actually works but will NBN make any difference to the internet speed connection to outside of Australia?

I know the FTTP will be highspeed fibre optic cable connection between the premises and the exchange, but if we don't do much to improve the cross ocean cables to countries like Asia and the US, where majority of the bandwith are coming from, how can it actually help providing general high-speed internet access to homes in Australia?

Since more than 80% (just my gut feeling) of our internet content are coming from overseas, won't it help better if these speeds and quality are improved first hand? Everytime I need to access overseas web contents, it takes longer to load compare to local contents, e.g. try visting these websites, one is based in Australia and the other is the US:

1) http://www.abc.net.au/news

2) http://edition.cnn.com/

Obviously, the US contents take significantly longer to load because the contents are coming in from overseas, which in our case, due to our geographical location means we are a bit disadvantaged as we are so isolated from those other main continents, where most of the speed/bandwiths are coming from. So if we can improve and increase the speeds from within our country, it won't help much if majority of your contents are coming from overseas anyway, am I right?

And the other question is, if NBN is to roll out FTTP, then who owns the exchange? Is it still going to be Telstra as is the case now? Or does it have an entirely different equipments which won't require Telstra's current exchange to operate?

[Archer]

Don't know much about how the internet actually works but will NBN make any difference to the internet speed connection to outside of Australia?

I know the FTTP will be highspeed fibre optic cable connection between the premises and the exchange, but if we don't do much to improve the cross ocean cables to countries like Asia and the US, where majority of the bandwith are coming from, how can it actually help providing general high-speed internet access to homes in Australia?

Since more than 80% (just my gut feeling) of our internet content are coming from overseas, won't it help better if these speeds and quality are improved first hand? Everytime I need to access overseas web contents, it takes longer to load compare to local contents, e.g. try visting these websites, one is based in Australia and the other is the US:

1) http://www.abc.net.au/news

2) http://edition.cnn.com/

Obviously, the US contents take significantly longer to load because the contents are coming in from overseas, which in our case, due to our geographical location means we are a bit disadvantaged as we are so isolated from those other main continents, where most of the speed/bandwiths are coming from. So if we can improve and increase the speeds from within our country, it won't help much if majority of your contents are coming from overseas anyway, am I right?

Fortunately for all of us there is a new undersea Cable being constructed right now and is, if my memory is correct, due to begin operations later this year. See all the information and follow it's construction here: http://www.pipeinternational.com/ Pipe Networks have been working on this cable for quite some time and it will provide a considerable boost to our international bandwidth and introduce more competition into the International backhaul market. Ultimately what that will mean for us home users is hopefully cheaper internet plans or maybe plans with larger download limits for the same cost. The additional bandwidth that it provides will also mean improved performance when downloading data from overseas as all of the international links will become less congested, for a while at least anyway.

And the other question is, if NBN is to roll out FTTP, then who owns the exchange? Is it still going to be Telstra as is the case now? Or does it have an entirely different equipments which won't require Telstra's current exchange to operate?

The equipment is completely different and it's entirely possible that a FTTP network would not need access to the Telstra exchanges at all. I beleive that the Telstra Exchanges will remain in place and owned and operated by telstra providing "legacy" access to PSTN phone lines and existing ISP's ADSL2+ infrastructure until such point in the future that maintaining those services is no longer viable. That could still be 10-15 years or more down the track.

[Howie]

Don't know much about how the internet actually works but will NBN make any difference to the internet speed connection to outside of Australia?

I know the FTTP will be highspeed fibre optic cable connection between the premises and the exchange, but if we don't do much to improve the cross ocean cables to countries like Asia and the US, where majority of the bandwith are coming from, how can it actually help providing general high-speed internet access to homes in Australia?

You're right Edgar. Thankfully something is being done about it as we speak. As of next week, the Australia-Guam undersea cable starts delivering bandwidth to ISP's such as Internode. They touched down at Guam this year and connected it up to their grid. Guam for it's tiny population is the most connected place in the world, providing links to asia and the USA. They'll be looking at duplicating some of these links in the coming years... not only because of the NBN but because it will drive down prices for o/seas access and lead to more competition.

Since more than 80% (just my gut feeling) of our internet content are coming from overseas, won't it help better if these speeds and quality are improved first hand? Everytime I need to access overseas web contents, it takes longer to load compare to local contents, e.g. try visting these websites, one is based in Australia and the other is the US:

1) http://www.abc.net.au/news

2) http://edition.cnn.com/

Obviously, the US contents take significantly longer to load because the contents are coming in from overseas, which in our case, due to our geographical location means we are a bit disadvantaged as we are so isolated from those other main continents, where most of the speed/bandwiths are coming from. So if we can improve and increase the speeds from within our country, it won't help much if majority of your contents are coming from overseas anyway, am I right?

You're probably on the money there too. We'll have blindingly quick internet access within Australia but it's still quite a few hops away from say CNN.

Code: Select all

C:\Users\>tracert www.abc.net.au

Tracing route to a1632.g.akamai.net [202.6.138.117]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  home.gateway [192.168.1.254]
  2    28 ms    18 ms    14 ms  lo5000.bras7.adl1.adnap.net.au [122.49.191.22]
  3   192 ms    77 ms   212 ms  g3-25.cor1.adl1.adnap.net.au [219.90.143.201]
  4    18 ms    17 ms    16 ms  g0-1.cologw1.adl1.adnap.net.au [219.90.143.66]
  5    40 ms    28 ms    28 ms  a202-6-138-117.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [20
2.6.138.117]

Trace complete.

C:\Users\>tracert edition.cnn.com

Tracing route to www.edition.cnn.com [157.166.226.46]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  home.gateway [192.168.1.254]
  2    16 ms    17 ms    35 ms  lo5000.bras7.adl1.adnap.net.au [122.49.191.22]
  3    30 ms    28 ms    17 ms  g3-25.cor1.adl1.adnap.net.au [219.90.143.201]
  4    30 ms    32 ms    16 ms  vlan444.o5rxc76f000.optus.net.au [59.154.56.1]
  5   207 ms   228 ms   207 ms  te-4-2.car2.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.79.42.229]
  6   227 ms   219 ms   225 ms  vlan99.csw4.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.68.18.254]
  7   219 ms   223 ms   218 ms  ae-93-93.ebr3.SanJose1.Level3.net [4.69.134.237]

  8   210 ms   215 ms   215 ms  ae-2.ebr3.LosAngeles1.Level3.net [4.69.132.10]
  9   201 ms   201 ms   211 ms  ae-92-98.ebr2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net [4.69.146.2
7]
 10   245 ms   253 ms   252 ms  ae-3.ebr3.Dallas1.Level3.net [4.69.132.78]
 11     *      278 ms   270 ms  ae-7.ebr3.Atlanta2.Level3.net [4.69.134.22]
 12   267 ms   453 ms   267 ms  ae-2-52.edge4.Atlanta2.Level3.net [4.68.103.46]

You can see it's 5 hops from my router to ABC. About 12 hops to the USA, and the time counted in ms are up around the 200's when you hit USA. For the average user this isn't so much of a problem, you can happily stream HD content at these sorts of speeds.. but in the future with everyone coming online, and applications like voice-over-ip taking over this link is bound to be saturated. A solution will be needed... but at least the bottle neck isn't on our end.

But the flip side is, as seen in China-Japan-South Korea, is that the locals will start to ramp up their own services. Connection within china is surprisingly quick, with some cities having hit 100mps a good 10 years ago.. koreans are now hitting 1tb connections as with japan. They've had to start delivering their own content, there are thousands of homegrown tv channels which stream in HD over there.. and it's something that'll bound to be repeated here. I could see sites like S-A with the right sort of backing being able to deliver HD quality content in the future, and it could spell the end for traditional TV as we know it (actually it probably will). Definitely a plus for our local economy.

And the other question is, if NBN is to roll out FTTP, then who owns the exchange? Is it still going to be Telstra as is the case now? Or does it have an entirely different equipments which won't require Telstra's current exchange to operate?

NBNC will own the infrastructure. Telstra will still own their copper exchanges. They will run in parallel.. which as Simon Hackett says is the best model so Telstra won't be able to stop the NBNC from carrying out it's work, and consumers get a choice if they want to be moved over to the new FTTH network. The downside, you'll have an extra cable hanging from your telephone pole to your house (it's only a small thin black cable anyway).

[Howie]

lol@archer posting at the same time.. glad we're on the same page mate.

Edit: Changed the thread title to #U/C.. as we can safely say this is currently underconstruction (in tasmania, and in about six months time in rural australia).

[rev]

which as Simon Hackett says is the best model so Telstra won't be able to stop the NBNC from carrying out it's work, and consumers get a choice if they want to be moved over to the new FTTH network. The downside, you'll have an extra cable hanging from your telephone pole to your house (it's only a small thin black cable anyway).

The thing which makes me happiest with this NBN, is that we wont have to deal with Telstra..hopefully ever again regarding Internet service.
Regarding the cables on the stobie polls...that's a minor issue, I can't see anyone complaining. Besides how much longer will we have stobie polls, before they start putting everything underground?